Rebuttal Concerning Professor Lau Bun and Hung Sing Elders

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

My name is Dennis Dino Salvatera, head Sefu of the Hung Sing in the USA. I am writing this notice after talking with some of my elders and my teacher. The Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut people are very proud and respectable people. From time to time, people put out stories about some of our people, saying they are gangsters and killers. There are even glorious stories of their feats. These are bald-faced lies. I personally met and talked with Professor Lau Bun and my teacher Jew Leong, for many years. We have always been good community active people trying to keep younger people out of trouble, especially in San Francisco Chinatown, where I was born. Over the years, we had many women in Hung Sing, since our beginnings in the 1930’s, who went on to become productive family people and never caused one bit of trouble, No, no-one of our people killed anyone. Yes, we have fought; sometimes it was rough living here in Chinatown, just like other cities in America.

Our goals are and always will be teaching health, self defense and hopefully, good citizens. We do not think we are better than any branch, group or person.

Thank you,
Dino Salvatera
Hung Sing USA

(This message posted on behalf of Sefu Dino)

2

Looks like somebody might have got a spanky from Sifu.

FP

3

fu pow,

this has nothing to do with me if you are assuming that I have anything to do with whatever my sifu has had someone post in his name.

You wanna know why “I” won’t be getting a spanking?

Because “I” never called my sifu, my sigung, or Lau Bun a “GANGSTER, OR A KILLER.” On the site it wrote about Lau Bun http://www.professorlaubun.zoomshare.com you will not find anywhere me glorifying Lau Bun as a gangster nor a killer.

No where do you find me promoting my sifu as a hardcore gangster, or that he ever killed anyone, and that goes for Jew Leong as well.

Anything that I have written about my Lau Bun, Jew Leong, and my sifu, are the results of my own investigations, interviews, and so forth. EVERYTHING I have written is verifiable, so therefore is FAR FROM BEING BALD FACE LIES.

A person cannot run from their past, no matter how fast they run, how slick they think they are. sometimes your past can get there before you do.

So, I’m not sure who my sifu is referring to when he claims someone is spreading bald face lies. But it ain’t me, and that’s to set the record straight for mr FU POW…oh he’ll put me on his ignore list…oh he already did, so what the F?

Frank

4

People freaked out when I posted stories about Chan Tai San, even some people in our group were trying to cover them up. It isn’t politically correct, and sometimes the facts show that “masters” are just people, not g-ds. It’s also ok to come from a background like that and then become a “good person” and help your community. I can see room for both world views

5

ross,

i agree with that. in the past my sifu and i have had conversations about not telling people this or that. But its my opinion “it’s not where you came from, it’s where you are today.” My sifu has his past, but look at him today!!!

With all my sifu went through, he is the head master of the oldest existing gung fu school on american soil. In one sense, rags to riches. It’s also my opinion that people need to know your past to get a better perspective on who you are today. I mean, people will respect an ex street thug turned responsible martial arts instructor, over someone who just had daddy make the deposit on the school so you could open one, type of teacher.

If no one recorded Lau Buns, Jew Leongs, and My sifu’s past, then when they die it all gets forgotten. That’s not fair to the legacy he left behind, to selfishly withhold when it can benefit others later on down the line is completely wrong.
if i didn’t do the research on lau bun, then the world would only know about him whatever that would fit in paragraph.

So, I documented their pasts, and have even been complimented by Jew Leong in the work that I’m doing. So I KNOW he’s not referring to my work and efforts in preserving our history.

6

and rebuttal to what…I have no idea.

here, you be the judges and tell me if, where, and what I said that is considered "bragging, boasting, promoting gangsterism, or killing in any of these websites. Nor am I telling any lies, be it bald face or a face filled with wooly mammoth hair.

So, i know it ain’t me he’s talking about. that’s for sure.

http://www.professorlaubun.zoomshare.com
http://www.jewleong.zoomshare.com
http://www.tienloong.zoomshare.com

In ending, if you find where I am promoting being a gangster, killing, or any lies about any of these three sites…someone please point that out.

Frank

7

heres the deal

you cant be from either taiwan or hong kong or live in chinatown without having someone or another that you know who knows somebody who knows Tong, Triad, etc. thats just what you get for being asian.

thats why the lau bun and CTS stories had more of a “finally someone tells the truth” affect on me

8

I agree I don’t know too many CLF sifus that don’t have some connection to “hak sei wui” from their sifu’s, sisuks, sibaats or sigungs. I know we have some history within our own lineage; however it is not something generally discussed openly and students nowadays have no clue.

Frank:

You should remember you did go on about Lau Bun being a “hatchet man” and other things.

9

Whatever I’ve said about Lau Bun isn’t anything knew. Everyone knew about what Lau Bun did for the Hop Sing Tong back in the days.

However, nothing I’ve said about Lau Bun, Jew Leong, or my sifu is a lie, accept for the stuff on Lau Bun I’ve spoken to and gotten information directly from the sources when it comes to Jew Leong and my sifu.

So whether Lau Bun was a hatchet man, or a newspaper delivery boy, the truth is the truth…and how does my sifu say it…“the truth shall set you free”.

10

Re: Lau Bun and Hung Sing Elders

As a student of Sifu Dino since 1981, I feel a certain responsibility to weigh in on this post. First of all I want to say there are countless stories and legends involved in Chinese martial arts and I will be the first to admit that these stories and or legends do not escape the Hung Sing Gwoon established by Prof. Lau Bun during times past. It is the goal of real Chinese martial arts to produce outstanding citizens by the various factors associated with kung fu. When we learn the authentic methods ones character should transform, a certain new person if you know what I mean. We should become more disciplined, display more humility, be more cooperative, all these things learnt from the training of Chinese martial arts. Hung Sing Gwoon USA has thrived for many years and I doubt very seriously if it was because it housed a den of gangsters, but then I don’t know for sure because I wasn’t there like many others of my generation and my Sifu’s Generation we literally came in on the tail end. And judging by some of the true elders that are still around like my Si-Gung Jew Leong, Sifu E.Y. Lee, Sifu Johnny Ma, Sifu Doc Fai Wong and others who can really say, were there eye witnesses to these stories, I mean people who were actually there? that can speak on them now. I think we should concentrate on our skill level and let the past rest because its over. Regardless to my Dai Si Gung Lau Bun, Si Gung Jew Leong, Sifu Dino Salvatera or Si Suks and Sihings, they have paved their way long before me, and I refuse to be acknowledge because of any exploits of their lives. I realize that I have to make a name for myself a good name I may add, the old fashion way and that is simply by training and when others see my performance they say “hey, that guys gung fu is pretty good, he was taught well”. So in closing let the past stay asleep, its already done and over with, we must concentrate on the NOW by training hard with maximum efforts to bring our respective disciples continued honor and glory. It is far more easier for a person to ride the coat tails of others by way of association but not willing to do the work themselves to be rightfully respected. Even if the stories or legends of our past ancestors are true or not what does it actually have to do with our training, absolutely nothing, we must stand by our own merits and not anyone elses. Believe half of what you see, and nothing that your hear unless you witnessed it for yourself.

11

now troy,

tell me how i’m not supposed to take that personally?

frank

If you have a problem with me troy, I’m right here, or you know my number. Say something. Closed mouths don’t get fed.

If you, my sifu, or anyone else for that matter don’t want to know history of where we came from, or background information on our elders, that’s not my problem. I did this because I wanted to know our history, it wasn’t something my sifu put me up to, this is my passion.

How does their past have anything to do with you today? if nothing, what’s wrong with knowing?

Yeah they paved their way long before you, and maybe you don’t want to know who our elders were, but i do, i did, and I researched it now i know. I shared what I learned because there were people out there interested in knowing their pasts, and I won’t be the one to say “I don’t know”, maybe you are ok with that, but i’m not.

so what’s the problem here? if you have one, then bring it to me. it sounds like you have one though. I could be wrong.

12

Interesting thread. In every lineage, just like in every family there are things that are too politically hot to discuss openly. Consequently these tidbits are kept within the family. The events of the past and the parts our ancestors played (the good, the bad, and the questionable) are major impactors on who we are today. This is why we pay homage to them when we walk into the school and when we leave; thanking them for the lessons they’ve learned the hard way so that we can have things a bit easier. In my opinion, knowing your past is essential in plotting a path for your future. Keep up the research Frank.

13

Mr Cunningham,

thank you. And I totally agree. It’s my opinion that the world should know what my elders (and family to DFW’s lineage) should know about Lau Bun, Jew Leong, and my sifu. I spoken (email really) with someone who said they didn’t know much or have up much of Lau Bun. I hope that because of what I did, those who want to know I helped.

See, I still know my sifu isn’t talking about me, because for another reason, he approved of everything I wrote about him & the others.

However, what mind boggles me, (and my sifu does what he wants) but if he didn’ t want people to know that he was a part of this, or that group, and was part of this gang or whatever, then why does he have it on his own website? Why have someone post this thread? But like i said in the past I know my sifu very well. I know why he has this sudden change of heart over his past. I understand why he feels this way, but in the end, what he doesn’t want people to know anymore is still found on his website.

See, the way i view it, Lau Bun, Jew Leong and my sifu all experienced things not too many outsiders can ever say they have. All have endured some very challenging points in their lives, many of those points shaped them into who they’ve become. I know my sifu doesn’t want to seem like he brags, so he doesn’t want others to tell it either. But, that’s how we lose ourselves, and allows people to forget who they were.

But, I don’t want to let what happened in the 1800’s happen to me. I want my future descendants, students, and even children to know my history, my teachers and their teachers history. It would be a complete shame to forget about our ancestors. Who are we that we forget the hardships and achievements of our ancestors, but promote ourselves instead as if we are far better than them?

But, since fu pow made a comment that someone got spanked by his sifu, I wanted to let him and everyone else that might think it was me that got spanked, because no where do I glorify what happened. I only chronicled their past.

And if preserving my ancestors legacy (regardless if checkered with the darker side of life) is a crime, then I’m guilty as Hell. But, that doesn’t mean I am going to change their legacies to turn it into some Mary Poppins child story so I won’t offend anyone. I am going to tell the history in the best light possible, but the facts are the facts, and one of those facts include the demise of Immigration Officers. That is something we all know. Is that a lie now?

The past of my elders are NOT LIES in the least. Nor are they fattened up to make it sound good.

Maybe in my sifu’s elder years his past is bothering him and he doesn’t want others to know about that. If that’s the case, i still say the past is the past. I am impressed with his past, and isthe sole reason for my writing his and my other elders histories down. So, I do honor them, and in no way shape or form embarrass them, and shame them. Everything is written to show how and what they’ve experienced to get them to the place we revere them at.

peace

14

Re:

To All Gum San Hung Sing Gwoon USA Members

Let me at this time state to be beyond any speculation that the following is my personal opinion and the following is of my own accord.

Now according to the Hung Sing history I find various loop holes, no I do not believe that Jeung Yim, Jeung Hung Sing is the founder of Choy Lee Fut, I do believe he learned from Chan Heung and later developed his own branch based upon his knowledge and life experiences.

The Choy Lee Fut that Lau Bun taught in my opinion is not the same version that is taught at Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon. I truly do not believe my Sifu would go there and re-learn all the skills he learned under Master Jew Leong, as if he wasn’t capable of doing a great job teaching him really all he needed to know.

Those of us under Master Dino Salvatera and Si Gung Jew’s direct students, in my opinion, our history begins with Great Master Lau Bun regardless of the close relationship in movement with Futsan the styles are different . I believe the history of our branch and school is different from Futsan since Lau Bun made changes, and I believe it’s evident with the curriculums being different. However the very core of Lau Bun Choy Lee Fut contains all the necessary Choy Lee Fut basics.

As far as i’m concerned Hung Sing USA history is with Lau Bun, because he established our system, much as I believe Jeung Yim did his, however the foundation is Choy Lee Fut Boxing.

Troy Dunwood
Ying Hung Yat Ga MartialArts Association

15

As a senior disciple of the American Hung SIng Kwoon, I am making a comment to what sifu Dunwood has commented on.

Troy, you have not learned, seen, nor have you been to Fut San to the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon, so I don’t feel you have the right, nor authority to speak on the differences between the Fut San and Lau Bun branch.

However, I make this very PROUD statement that Lau Bun’s CLF and Fut San’s CLF is much more closer the being truly authentic than what Sifu Dunwood would intend you to believe after his comments. I have video footage of the very first meeting between My Sifu and the Fut San HSK. It was either 1999, or 2000 but the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon basically matched our school set for set. If we did our cheung kuen, they did CHe Kuen, and so on. On the tape you can hear them say we are the same.

Out of every single Fut San related school to visit Fut San it was us that they said resembled them more than anyone. Movement, set patterns, even in Sup Gee we are basically the same and could follow side by side. Many of the same moves that are in their sets ( i mean move for move) are in ours. We went to fut san in 2001, but we have been here in America since the very early 1920’s.

FUt San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut is celebrating it’s 155th anniversary this year. Lau Bun’s school is just about half as old. So being that Lau Bun learned His CLF at the turn of the century, less than 15 years after Jeong Yim’s death ( and he was born during Jeong Yim’s lifetime) Lau Bun’s Choy Lee Fut is as authentic as it could be for the time that he learned it. If Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out bagua and NOT JEONG YIM, then it truly shows that the Fut San HUNG SING KWOON was a complete system, but was still developing and continued to develop in private as they went underground.

Lau Bun came to america and taught whatever it was that he learned from Yuen Hai which has been proven to be authentic Fut San HSK CLF. Yes the sets they teach may be different, but whose is the same? EVEN in fut san the same set was taught differently to each and every single person. There is no standard.

So Troy, I ask you again what authority do you have to compare the fut san hsk to that of Lau Buns? You have never learned the sets from my sifu that sifu brought back from fut san, you have never been to fut san, i’ve never shown you the video footage of the demonstrations, so where do you get off making comments like that?

You and I have even agreed that most likely what was taught in the early stages were techniques over sets. Who knows when the sets came into play? But our Choy Lee Fut lineage is that of the true fut san hung sing kwoon and not how you just painted it out to be.

yeah i know you said this is your personal opinion, but if you didn’t learn the sets or have even seen them, then what are you basing those comments on? Your opinion?

16

As I’ve said in the past, Lau Bun took the CLF that was being taught at the time, came to america and continued to develop his gung fu. Yes he did found this lineage, and maybe alot came from him, but you don’t know what Lau Bun learned from Yuen Hai, nor what Lau Bun taught. Lau Bun taught differently to each and every single person, people in fut san learned the very same sets differently, and this happens between every school.

the only branch that seems to teach the same sets as standards (which means each and every school of that branch teaches the exact same sets the same way etc).

So I beg to differ with your account Sifu Dunwood. I think you got it twisted.

When and where did you learn FUt San Sets so that you can compare them with Lau Buns? If you did learn them, then you would see some super similarities between them. The one thing i’ve noticed is that the way we execute CLF techqniques is that we’ve blended one with another, while it’s more defined in other schools.

we have always trained to fight, so we practiced our sets with fighting in mind, not the prettiness of how the set should look. But you have sadly made a mistake in your comments in Fut San being different than Lau Buns branch. Our stuff came from there, Lau Bun didn’t come to america and falsely claim to be a CLF practitiner, then make up his clf.

Lau Bun was a pioneer for his generation. Jew Leong was a Pioneer for his generation. My sifu is a pioneer for his generation. do you see how our CLF is not remaining stagnant? Do you see that what once was evolved into what we do today? We progress, and that means we develop gung fu that is strictly for our school, and branch or its connections. It is what WE do. It’s OUR gung fu, because gung fu is a personal thing. And if Lau Bun developed the rest of his CLF based off of what he learned from the FUt San HUng SIng Kwoon master, it was his right and choice. And throughout asia, Lau Bun is HIGHLY respected for what he did, and how he developed his CHOY LEE FUT.

I don’t care if Lau Bun’s CLF can’t be compared to the chan family, or other schools carrying the same name. IF you can produce me two fut san related schools but have no relation to each other, and they practiced the same sets, the same way, with no differences, then you don’t have a place to comment on how Lau Bun Developed his gung fu.

CHan Heung developed gung fu and strictly passed it down within his own branch. What you are missing is the fact that CHan Heung (who was a normal human being) established a system and made up (developed) gung fu based off of the gung fu he learned. He developed his own staff, weapon sets, dummy sets, etc etc, then why is it so hard to conceive Lau Bun took the CLF that was being taught at that time, never went back to fut san, but developed more based on his own knowledge, then what’s the problem here?

17

Re:

Who said I never been to Futsan, because you didn’t know about it, and who said I never learned any of the sets, because you were not there when Sifu showed me, ask him if he taught me any of the futsan sets, also tell me are Lau Bun sets taught in the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon, movement for movement the way they are taught here? I think all choy lee fut have similarities but we are not all one big happy family. And finally tell me whats with this senior disciple thing, have you ever bowed to Sifu Dino? I confer the foundation of Futsan teachings and whats passed on by Lau Bun is the same but you won’t go to Futsan and see what Lau Bun taught. And contrary to what may be thought, I do have video footage that was given to me of Lau Bun in Marysville.

18

footage of lau bun?

post some please!

19

i

So, I documented their pasts, and have even been complimented by Jew Leong in the work that I’m doing. So I KNOW he’s not referring to my work and efforts in preserving our history.

there is an article on jew leong in INSIDE KUNG-FU, vol.3,#1, jan. 1976, by michael p staples. in that interview jew leong states his linage very clearly. he also mentions the same incident you make in your so-called professor Lau Bun website. it seems to me that jew sifu would have better sources than yours. sifu’s version has a ring of truth to it. your version seems to enjoy the idea of one man killing officers of the law for a immigration violation. IS THIS NOT A CRIME? this really smacks of wanton violence and fostering gangterism. the fact is Lau Bum’s papers were in perfect order and he received social security when he retired. this is vertified throught public records. you only had to look. well i sure you can’t call jew sifu a bald face liar or would you really go that far? jew sifu told my classmate last nov. “that if anyone who wanted to talk about Lau Bun, that person should contact him”. your lack of scholarship, as well as your gossip-like research is plebian. you just don’t get it! you are soiling the name of hung sing! you have hurt all elders of both jew sifu’s generation as well as dino’s generation. your truth has a hollow ring and does not serve the style as you say is your mission.

20

In fact,

If we were to stop teaching the Sets passed down from Lau Bun, and created our own, it would still be choy lee fut. period. It may not be Chan Heung’s choy lee fut, It may not be Tam Sam’s Choy Lee Fut, but the one things for sure, it does come from the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon.

Lau Bun was provided all the necessary tools to establish his own school and possessed enough foresight ( as a fighter in a foriegn land) to develop his gung fu, while teaching it to the Tong Members. Over time what Lau Bun developed turned into something that Jew Leong put his ear mark on, then my sifu put his earmark on and that will continue on down the line.

If sets are what you’re worried about then go to the Chan Family, they developed almost 200 of them since its conception.

But Lau Bun -as i’ve said earlier- is and was a pioneer for Choy Lee Fut which has continued to develop within his own branch. That is why we are called the American Hung SIng Kwoon because we developed our gung fu right here in america which originally started in china.

Because Lau Bun added things into what he learned, and encouraged his own students to develop the system for themselves., does it mean it’s any less authentic or invalid. ARE YOU OUT OF YOU COTTON PICKIN’ MIND? And that is what we continue to do. Sets are not the core to the system. sets would not make you fight any better because you learned them. Personally, I’ve never seen anyone in my lifetime use a set (aside from the Karate Kid) in fighting.

So, in regards to What Lau Bun Learned and taught…who knows? No one has a written record to show what was taught at the fut San Hung SIng Kwoon. But what ever he learned before coming to America was the most earliest stages of CLF in its development. Other masters of the Choy Lee Fut system experienced the exact same thing, including the Chan Family of CLF. when those masters left and there was no way to learn the newest CLF developed by their branch, these masters developed CLF as they saw it. but it is still choy lee fut, so what’s the problem here?

What are you saying? Are you saying that Lau Bun learned just a hand, or two then came to america and told everyone he learned Choy Lee Fut? Are you calling Lau Bun a Charlatan? What are you insinuating?

I had to step away because I was getting heated.*

I’ve realized I’m still mad at kenny fist for attacking Lau Bun’s lineage for not teaching chan family material, and then to hear Troy talking like this made me more upset, and causes me to re-think troy’s position with Hung SIng.

But, to speak about Lau Bun, say he isn’t a master because he didn’t learn the whole CLF system taught by the FUT San HSK makes me mad. No one knows what was originally taught in all CLF Schools back then. So how you or anyone could say Lau Bun this or that mind boggle me.

Lau Bun was a true gung fu master. He was a CLF pioneer. And, the founder of the oldest gung fu school in the USA. Lau Bun taught HSK CLF as it was taught to him as it was developed during the time he learned it. He came to america, fut san continued to develop their stuff. lau Bun taught the foundation, roots, and the core of the system. He taught many things. He was a CHOY Lee Fut man to the heart, and showed his dedication, intelligence, and worth as a CLF MASTER by becoming a Pioneer.

Now Troy, My sifu didn’t go back to FUt San to re-learn anything. In fact he could teach them a thing or two. But as a result of retracing our roots he picked up sets that they teach because we are of the same family. There is nothing wrong with he going to back to fut san to learn more sets, it shows that he isn’t a sifu who sits back and does nothing. He isn’t so arrogant to believe he couldn’t be taught anything new.

ANd trust me, My sifu learned a few new things from fut san, but at the same time they recognize we do their old way, and according to sifu they sort of began to switch back to the way we do it. he saw this with his own eyes. Now, since you don’t know troy, the sets from fut san from the beginnings to the endings are very similar, and very shocking at first because we thought it was just lau bun that did that. but come to find out that we do the very same things, just with a different flavor.

HSK