Whoever wrote this has never stepped into the ring with even an amateur, let alone a professional boxer. Winning a championship at either of these levels, even by points is a great achievment- one has to hit hard and take brutal punishment.
LOL @ a boxer who competes at either level, who is “punchless”. Anyone who has stepped into the ring with a boxer, even amateur, knows that they are far from “punchless”. Competitive boxers punch harder and better than the majority of “martial artists” who spout off about thier deadly punching power.
You are making it functional, exactly the way that it should happen. That’s why it looks so much like wrestling and MT clinch work. Functional stuff looks the same.
Here are a few questions for you- how much of your standup striking work when you spar in shooto is WC stuff that you have learned from doing chi sao and how effective are those techs against the other fighters in your gym? Which of these techs do you find to be high percentage and which are not?
Maybe because most people in WC are not doing it.
You don’t need any footage. That description was great. I know exactly what you are doing.
You act as if we are stalking him on mma forums and trying to convert him to see the holy grail of WC. Who ever said it some vital piece he was missing? Actually it’s the other way around as far as who is stalking who with their prejudices. In case you haven’t noticed, this is a WC forum and he is here expressing his disdain and criticisms.
First thing, I am not some huge WC advocate. I haven’t done chi sao in years.
Secondly, some of his criticisms, when you cut through the sarcasm, are extremely valid. In particular, he has questioned over and over again the usefulness of chi sao, forms and the wooden dummy. (Correct me if I’m wrong, KF).
I’ll try to make this easy for you, Omar. You can’t answer these questions over the internet.
The only way is hand to hand, but not some stupid high school challenge. When I wanted to learn about grappling, I went and found the best grapplers I could find in the local area. Why would I go to some white belt, or to an internet forum for crissakes! I found a few, and we exchange on a regular basis. Yes, if Rickson was near me, Anerlich, he’d be the best to go to obviously. So whoever suggested Gary Lam or whoever you choose in your local area, they are the best people to go exchange with. That might satisfy this fetish, KF, you have for WC since you keep coming back to this forum. If you were questioning choy li fut, or tae kwon do, my advice would be the same.
And Omar, since he keeps coming back to this forum, a WC forum, why would I suggest he go to choy li fut or judo? What does choy li fut have to do with the merits or demerits of chi sao? If he really had moved on from WC as you say, then why is he here on this forum with these questions? See how stupid your post is?:o Ah, maybe you just like being KF’s cheerleader.
KF, you have questions about Alan Orr or the Jenson video- you can’t get them answered here. When you wanted to learn about knifefighting, you went to the best, the dogfighters, not some crappy knifefighting school. You won’t get credible answers from crap schools, so of course you should seek out the best. If you have questions about WC, go to some local guys and exchange. How else can they explain why they choose to chi sao? People can’t debate the usefulness of chi sao through internet debating any more than boxers can explain why they spend a lot of time shadowboxing.
I never had an exchange with all the different stylists I sought that I didn’t benefit from. That’s basic research, not internet research. And exchanging is not high school challenges, that’s if you show some simple courtesy that is sometimes missing from your internet posts. But hey, this is the internet!
Only the words of Jack Dempsey, but compared to you he knew nothing, well that says something when he was admired not just by Bruce Lee but also Tyson, but the ‘Knifefighter’ knows better!
Sheesh… amateurish attempt trying to set me up. Surely you can do better than that.:rolleyes:
If that was written by hm, it was obviously years after he had retired from boxing. Lots of old f@rts remember the "old days " as harder and and more challenging than the current era. Remember the old saw about parents who told thier kids they walked to school 10 miles in the snow, uphill both ways everyday?
BTW, human performance has improved in every single competitive sport since the days of Dempsey. Boxing is no exception.
Gabe-
I think you are taking this WAY to seriously. Let’s put things in perspective.
First of all nobody is stalking anybody. As far as I’m concerned, this is pure entertainment- plain and simple. I discovered long ago, you’re not going to learn a whole lot here… that’s not the draw.
The fun is I get to state my opinions… NHB style. You guys argue back, I rebut, simpletons like tjwc try feeble and unsuccessful attempts to trap me- and so on and so forth… There’s a piece of me that loves to debate and the fact that we are not diplomatic about it is what makes it fun. We could never do this in real life without killing each other.
While the opinions I state are pretty much what I feel, the fact is that I don’t really care how or what anyone chooses to train. I know that everyone has different considerations and each of our “realities” is somewhat different.
For anyone who seriously gets upset with the things I write, simply put me on your ignore list. That would actually be good for me. I spend way too much time here and I would quickly lose interest without the back and forth banter and derision that occurs. As a matter of fact, other than a few occasional exceptions, I post almost exclusively in this and the main forum. For some reason, only these two have that special verbal NHB mentality that sucks me in. Quit doing that and it will be much easier for me to slink off and spend more of my time productively.
As far as checking out with other styles in person, I’ve been doing that for years. I live in an area that is a melting pot of MA styles and often check other people out. I just don’t normally post about it.
Just read twjwingchun’s post #59 on this thread - wherein he’s quoting Jack Dempsey…so twjwingchun says, anyway.
Maybe it is from Dempsey, I don’t know.
Either way, the post (“quote”) makes a lot of sense about how boxing for points instead of learning how to move and punch in order to fight-for-real is a waste of time - and phonies up the art of boxing.
Does anbody really think Ali could have beaten a Marciano or young Tyson (while D’Amato was still alive)…in an alley???
Or a Jack Johnson? Or a Dempsey?
I don’t. As great a ring fighter as Ali was…as quick as his combos were…as deceptive and as mobile as his footwork was…IT WOULDN’T MATTER.
***JUST READ tjwingchun’s post #59 on this thread again - wherein he’s quoting Jack Dempsey…so tjwingchun says, anyway.
Maybe it is from Dempsey, I don’t know.
Either way, the post (“quote”) makes a lot of sense about how boxing for points instead of learning how to move and punch in order to fight-for-real is a waste of time - and phonies up the art of boxing.
Does anybody really think Ali could have beaten a Marciano or young Tyson (while D’Amato was still alive)…in an alley???
Or a Jack Johnson? Or a Dempsey?
Even with his handspeed, combos, awesome footwork, etc. - I think he’d lose.
Agreed. My only suggestion for your questions is to do exactly what you’ve been doing for years. My annoyance isn’t with you, it’s with Omar’s silly post. But again, your questions can only be discussed in person. Asking a person why they spend any time whatsoever chi-saoing is a very good question. Dealing with grapplers via WC is another good question. You may want to address these to Keith Mazza if he’s there. I’ve heard he discusses this all the time. This upcoming tournament sounds like a great chance to do that.
While this has been a good thread, it is also frickin hilarious. Knife owned everybody in this thread… Who says mma is no good for multiple attackers?
However, what’s sad is that you guys LOVE it. When knife, myself, MP, etc. post on the mma related threads over here, you guys jump on the thread, EVERY time, trying to prove one way or another how you are right and we are wrong… From what I know of KF, he’s probably got more competition experience than anyone else in this thread, AND he’s trained in the style he’s “bashing” unlike some of you, who have no sport fighting training.
what was supposed to be the shortest thread in wc forum history may well turn into the longest if this keeps up. Concede defeat, guys…
not necessarily. He’s bashing the training methods. For example, by someone’s prior admission, gary lam’s guys don’t spar. but they train chi sao and forms. From a fight perspective, that is not efficient. Discussing that perceived flaw is merely that - discussing a perceived flaw. It’s not bashing the entire style.
now personally knifefighter what i think sucks is your attitude. i could be wrong about that (been wrong before) but youve got experience and expertise why not help people out instead of just cutting them down or is your game just ho ho ho look how ****ing clever i am pat myself on the back.
perhaps it is not his attitude, but yours:
this thread was created toward him, not vice versa.
he is telling you guys what may be flaws in your game, and instead of saying "thanks, I’ll look into that, " you tell him that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. You gotta be open to constructive criticism. If someone tells me, “hey, when you throw your straight right, you drop your left hand,” I’m not gonna talk bad about them - I’m gonna thank him for pointing out something I didn’t see and fix it.
also when you talk about hooking up with wing chun people in LA there are a few people there you could easily meet up and train with and maybe youd school them (maybe not) but still you could get a good impression of what some people with really good wing chun skills and good training attitudes who have been about a bit have to offer.
he stated before that he HAS played with WC guys. Naturally, you all come back and say “well, were they GOOD wc guys?”
He may have trained in wing chun - but everytime he mentions that part of his life the number goes up…like the size of the fish in the old Humphrey Bogart movie, TO HAVE AND HAVE NOT.
I remember his first remarks about his wing chun training when he first started posting on this forum…first it was about 5-6 years…now it’s 8 years. LOL.
Furthermore - if he was training with who I think he was training with (and he refused to tell me in a pm once)…
he wasn’t training with with one of the better wing chun people - not by a long shot.
So how much good wing chun Dale Frank ever learned is clearly an open question. All the more reason why I’m, quite FRANKLY, :rolleyes: ;), amazed that he never followed through on his plan to visit Gary Lam - clearly one of the best wing chun guys around and residing right in Dale Frank’s own back yard.
Nonetheless…this thread (and Dale Frank’s presence on this forum) does serve a very good purpose, imo - as his experience/realism/MMA approach to martial arts is a much needed commodity/reminder within most of the wing chun world…
wherein I dare say that about 90% is pure bull5hit when push comes to shove in a real fight against a GOOD, SKILLED, TRAINED MARTIAL ARTIST OR TOUGH/SKILLED STREETFIGHTER TYPE.
The other 10% does consist of people who can definitely hold their own or better against the above - especially those people involved in crosstraining with longer range stuff (ie.- boxing)…and VERY short range stuff (wrestling/grappling, BJJ, sambo, Greco, etc.)
A skilled/realistically trained wing chun man - when using it in the proper range (ie.- very close quarter standup - and yes…when in someone’s guard, as another example)…
he stated before that he HAS played with WC guys. Naturally, you all come back and say “well, were they GOOD wc guys?”[/QUOTE]
Sorry, that is a valid question. What makes you think the experiences he had in the past would mirror the ones he may have in the future at this tournament or at an Alan Orr seminar? How else do you respond to his martial questions other than either go meet him in person or suggest great people who he can meet up with if we are too far apart.
I’ve based my opinions on grappling based on experiences with outstanding grapplers, not on the countless crappy ones I’ve met. Should I have stopped after the crappy ones? What would you think of my opinion had I done so?
If he is sincere with his questions, then he has to continue that search like I did. And there’s plenty at his next tournament so it’s really not a difficult thing to do. We all do this kind of research.
It’s really not valid, as you guys always use it as a cop out. Just like the WC and other cma who have fought mma and lost. it’s always “well, he wasn’t a GOOD exponent,” or “well, if it were a master…”
However, the suggestions of people to cross hands with is great.
I’ve based my opinions on grappling based on experiences with outstanding grapplers, not on the countless crappy ones I’ve met. Should I have stopped after the crappy ones? What would you think of my opinion had I done so?
your opinion is your own. I only agree / disagree with it based on what you post, not the validity of your training partners. I can say from training with WC guys that I think trapping is almost useless in a fight. Naturally, someone may say I haven’t trained with any goo wc guys yet, which may be true. But there are others here who echo my sentiment…in the end though, it’s just my opinion based on my experience.
If he is sincere with his questions, then he has to continue that search like I did. And there’s plenty at his next tournament so it’s really not a difficult thing to do. We all do this kind of research.
Not really. He’s not on a quest. you guys are asking HIM questions. his path is competition in various venues. Who knows, maybe one day, more wc guys will cross his path. Until then, I seriously doubt this is all that important to him.
My training was not “straight through” in terms of receiving continuous instruction, so altogether it was probably five or six years. However, during this time I also continued to practice and do chi sao- hence the 8 year chi sao remark.
If you’ve followed my posts, I try to never bring outsiders’ names into my negative comments. They are not here and are not debating with me. I think it is classless to have trained with someone and then, later on, badmouth them specifically. I may bash people I’m debating here. I may bash training techniques. I may even bash an entire system, but I’m not going to implicate a specific person who was nice to me in the past… the only time I would do this would be if this person was here debating with me.
Victor, I believe you know who my original instructor was, which is probably who you are referencing. Many of his teachers were also my teachers.
Victor-
I’ll ask you the same question I asked YC. What is it that makes you believe Gary is “one of the best WC guys around”? Have you ever touched hands with him? Do you know him? Have you ever met him?
And once again…trapping two of your opponent’s arms with one of yours - so that you’re completely free to hit him with your other hand - because both of his arms have been tied up…
is bull5hit.
Almost impossible to do against a skilled fighter.
(See my earlier post about “trapping” for something that is possible to do - if you’re very good).
Again…about 90% of the wing chun claims (and the people making them) amounts to loads of BULL.
AND WITHOUT REALISTIC AND FREQUENT HARD, SPONTANEOUS SPARRING AGAINST SKILLED OPPONENTS…
the 90% number will not change.
Throw away all the “deadly” techniques (finger strikes to the eyes, kicks to the groin, chops to the throat)…which amounts to nothing more than an excuse not to train hard and tough (ie.-real time, full power sparring with protective gear)…
throw that stuff away and watch the real progress you’ll make if your goal is to really be fight-ready with your wing chun.
If not - resign yourself to limitless amounts of internet abuse from those outside of wing chun who are on to you…(even if you’re sincerely kidding yourself :eek: :rolleyes: ).
Wake up, wing chun brothers…and finally smell the friggin’ coffee.
What does choy li fut have to do with the merits or demerits of chi sao? If he really had moved on from WC as you say, then why is he here on this forum with these questions? See how stupid your post is?:o Ah, maybe you just like being KF’s cheerleader.
