This may be the shortest thread in history, but you’re always on here dissing WC but I just wanted to know:
Do you have a special wamr tingly feeling for wing chun, or do you diss other arts for perceived crapness just as much?
You trained a little wing chun right? Can you think of any good points?
Just wondered.
Cheers.
I don’t bash styles.
I bash bogus claims and inneffective training practices.
Good points about WC?
Some of it can be useful inside a person’s guard on the ground.
It can be very effective if you have a significant size advantage on your opponent.
Supposedly, a few people are using it to good effect in MMA. Right now, I’m in wait and seen mode on this one.
Styles are a Method of Training one or more strategies and concepts…
If the concepts and moves of the system are known to you, then they either make sense <for you> or they don’t… If they do then great, if not then great… Who cares?? 
As for quality of training, most TMA schools training sucks–isn’t this clear?
In the end it’s up to the people to use the style as a vehicle not the other way around.. There are great folks in most useful styles and you must seek them out to finally see what is possible from the style in question.
Never accused of doing so mate.
I bash bogus claims and inneffective training practices.
But you do seem particularly thorough in bashing WC… is that because you see more ineffective training practices in WC than most other arts?
Interesting. i would have thought so, based on a lot less exp than you. I would also say it has strongpoints in the clinch over other arts.
Do I remember you saying things along the lines of WC concentrating on trapping? Just trying to remember: we’ve always looked on trapping as a bomus if the opportunity presents itself, not somethign to be sought.
LOL!
I hear it’s great against unskilled scrubs, too.
"Ving Tsun. MA For The Bully Within You. ™"
I believe that boxing, Muay Thai, and wrestling have much better clinching tactics.
If I remember oorrectly, trapping is kind of incidental (if not even accidental) to the whole process and is next to impossible to pull of on a upright, mobie opponent who has halfway decent movement.
How have you researched this? What’s your basis?
As long as they aren’t significantly bigger and stronger than you are.
I’ve trained all of the above… the clinch happens to be one of my preferred ranges.
When is the last time you have sparred with the realism you advocate against a WC practitioner? Not the worst WC guy in his class, but the best? What about the muay thai people, did you spar them hard as well?
I competed as a golden gloves boxer, I fought both amateur and pro Muay Thai rules fights, competed in amateur and pro MMA events, and fight at the Dog Brothers gatherings twice a year. All of these have required that I spar with the realism I advocate.
I’m not surprised about the boxing and the muay thai. Nor the realism. I’m asking specifically about WC.
As an alternate point of reference, Erik Paulson trained in JKD under Dan Inosanto and did a LOT of Wing Chun chi sao and trapping. Paulson also trained BJJ with Rickson Gracie, Shooto with Nakamura, etc etc etc
According to Paulson, the standing trapping will not work 95% of the time against a trained fighter. He did however say it was very useful for hand control when using the guard…
I haven’t been able to find a pure WC guy to mix it up with in quite a while. Most pure WC guys won’t spar full contact. Not to mention the fact that I’m not on some kind of a quest to go out and find all the top WC guys to see if I can beat each of them up. My training time is already filled up with MMA, knife, BJJ, and sub-wrestling stuff. However, I’m always open if you want to send a good pure WC by for me to see what he’s got.
Most WC guys that I have come across that will actually spar have mixed any WC they continue to hold on to with Muay Thai, boxing, and, usually, some grappling. Since they are actually sparring hard, they have learned to throw out all the various techniques that are B.S. and incorporate only things that work.
With respect to finding the right WC guy, well, that’s in your own interest. Testing against people outside your box of comfort is necessary if you are truly after “what works” and exposing yourself to all kinds of fighters. All those other things are well within your expertise. Of course you have no problem going against people whose arts you understand.
If you can find a WCer who can fight, it’s in your interest. Until you’ve done so, your opinion of it isn’t worth much. This is just as valid as when people dis grappling but have never fought a grappler. They can talk ad nauseum about grappling, but don’t really know.
As far as what works, that’s an individual thing. Some people can make trapping work. Most can’t. If you look for and find the better ones, your martial experience is that much more enriched. Otherwise, you’re just theorizing.
You can say you’re too busy. But you’ve already dismissed it. I think you are as narrowminded sometimes as the most conservative cma-er.
WCK isn’t about “trapping”.
It is about a study of energy and position and how it relates to controlling center space, and/or the center “path” to the center-gravity of the opponent. A better way to think of “traps” is jamming, adhering, turning, deflecting and controlling, which should occur with split second economy in order to use feeling to gain a timing and positional advantage on the opponent.
WCK isn’t a “trapping” style per se, IMO so much as it is a clashing style–this study assists us to operate off the clash and sensing energy and position through feeling, something most dont focus on in stand up. We use these attributes to gain what is essentially center gravity control on entry in order to facilitate the attack or counter.. 
Of course I’ve sparred and fought pure WC guys full force. My very first challenge match was against a WC guy way back when I only had a wrestling background. I just said it’s been awhile. LOL @ not understanding it. I trained it for Chrissakes. Has WC been reinvented, or something?
Really, you understand it? Piece of cake, I guess. I thought boxing was a piece of cake to understand too until I trained it. Hell, a jab is a jab right?
Every individual reinvents WC for himself. It’s that way for all arts. Fighting Royce is not the same as fighting Rickson. You should know that. Fighting a WC guy from way back isn’t much of an experience with the art. What do you say to boxers that had only one match a long time ago? And why bother getting into the specifics of your training, doesn’t sound like you did much. That’s ok, it aint everyone’s cup of tea.
You are in contrast to the example Ross gave. That guy showed investment. While you should get all the respect for the investment you have in your own arts, you did not invest much in exploring WC. But it must be enjoyable to keep bashing it, eh? Carry on!
A) Trapping as most people define it is next to impossible in standup against a good fighter - but as some define it - neutralizing one of your opponent’s arms with one hand while hitting him with the other…while positioned in such a way that his free arm won’t help him for a brief moment…(and therefore for all intents and purposes acts like a trap)…is possible against a good standup fighter…
if you’re very good at it…and you’re at very close range.
B) Using boxing hands and other longer range moves to get to close range is advisable for a wing chun fighter, imo, when up against a skilled standup fighter.
C) Learning to mix grappling/wrestling moves when in the clinch with wing chun infighting techniques can also add significantly to one’s game, imo…and therefore wing chun’s efficiency is not just limited to when in someone’s guard on the ground.
D) Whatever happened to that visit you said you were going to make to see Gary Lam, wing chun sifu/fighter out in LA, Dale Frank ???
That was about 6-8 months ago.
Since LA is your home base - I’m wondering…did you ever go?
So much for the shortest thread in history.. LOL
Wow, so close to good Wing Chun!!
Sounds like a great opportunity to explain and demonstrate in person how WCK is fundamentally flawed and cannot work..
Seems to me Gary commented in one video that folks with this attitude should come visit.. I’m sure they would be interested..