Fair enough. Did you train clinch at all in your WC? I know many (most?) schools don’t for some blessed reason.
If I remember oorrectly, trapping is kind of incidental (if not even accidental) to the whole process and is next to impossible to pull of on a upright, mobie opponent who has halfway decent movement.
Also fair enough. That’s kind of my understanding of it too… I seemed to remember you saying something different before about the stress put on it: my mistake.
BTW some good posts (and a couple of gags too!) on this thread, which is kind of what I hoped for in getting KF’s often more objective opinion and some rational responses. Cheers all.
Not really, unless you are talking about the chi-sao looking stuff with the dumb backhands to the neck you generally see.
If there is standard WC that has clinch work that is up to par with MT, boxing and wrestling that’s news to me… maybe there is a clip or two of that approach out there that you could point me towards.
Why do you get your panties in such a bunch about my comments and what I do or don’t do? You’re hardly pure WC, either.
It seems as if you are pretty much doing many of the things I advocate. You are combining boxing, MT and sub wrestling to offset the weaknesses of WC. You spar, both standing and on the ground. You think WC is great in the clinch. I think there are better ways… other than that, we are on the same page. We even agree that the other is an a$$hole.
Just add some competitions and weapons into the mix and we will be training bretheren. :eek:
Let me guess, you’re not really doing this. You secretly spend all of your training time doing forms, playing with the WC dummy and doing Chi Sao.
Right, all that chi sao stuff he teaches must be from Muay Thai.. Okaaaay…
C’mon man his numerous vids contain nothing exclusive to MT, and tons 'O WCK, get real.. Hell, I havn’t even seen him teach a MT Clinch, but lots of that silly Chi Sao, though… :rolleyes:
Feel free to point out any MT in his Wing Chun vids… His comment was specifically regarding folks who make the exact kinds of off handed comments about Wing Chun and Wing Chun training that you have made a career of doing on these pages..
In any case Gary’s WCK is top notch… Why not go find out for yourself since you’re so close? I guess it’s easier to just rag on WCK folks over the Net… :o
Everyones entitled to thier opinion, but based on this comment i believe you havent experienced the best VT training. Although you could just be stirring these guys up… :rolleyes:
Your certainly an interesting guy, im mean what type of person advocates the views you have, only to frequent VT internet forums to disprove or generally disagree with the art…
What are you ? a MMA misionary here in the outskirts of the matial art badlands to convert the savages. LOL
VT worked for me just last week, downtown against two guys, but im not the greatest fighter out…
There’s ALWAYS someone better than yourself - this applies to both of us.
What does it take for me to have an informed opinion? Would it be OK if I had training from a first generation student of Yip Man. Would I then be entitled to this opinion? Or do I have to spend the rest of my life in search of the ultimate WC guy?
I have been training at Sifu Lam’s for a few years and yes he does know Muey Thai very well. Trained professional fighters in Thai boxing for many years, but he does not train in it any more. His Wing Chun is pure Wing Chun. He does like some of the kicks, but does not integrate any of it in his teaching of Wing Chun. He will show you some Thai stuff if you ask, but it is not part of the class. We do not spar at Sifu Lam’s since there are a lot of people that were getting a little out of control. We do spar, but it is left for you to train outside the class setting. He will coach you in it, but not as part of the class. Just some info to add to the conversation.
Back fists in the clinch? Wow, I’m guessing your WCK knowledge could use a boost.. Why not go get one.. I think you secretly want to rejoin the flock..
To wit:
I wasn’t suggesting a visit for Chi Sao…
Gary mentions folks who think WCK sucks should come on over…
Since there is good WCK “down the block” from you, why not take up these WCK “issues” you have with them, perhaps someone there would be able to “show you” what WCK can do…
This way you can begin to address this disturbing and negative fascination you apparently have with Wing Chun with some live WCK folks instead of wasting our time and bandwidth here…
What is it that drives you to spend so much time on a WCK board? Did you have some disturbing experience with the system as a child? Did you win that first challenge match with your WCK opponent?
If so why did you train it?
Where did you train it?
For how long did you train it?
What was the traumatic WCK incident that so inflamed your heart that you have made bashing it such a big part of your life?
These are the questions you need to address with yourself and a qualified professional…
No need to quote the whole thing. Just a bunch of specific reasons why KF “should” actively seek out the best WC people…:rolleyes:
That is really really dumb.
I mean, it makes a really absurd a priori assumption, namely that Wing Chun a priori SOMEWHERE out there, has the vital piece missing in KF’s game. Seeking out good fighters to test yourself, yes. Seeking out people from a variety of styles and training backgrounds, yes. But why in god’s name would you go OUT of your way to investigate even MORE deeply into a style which you already spent a few years in and didn’t find any particular excitement in. Why not just aribitrarily replace “Wing Chun” with some other art like Choi Li Fut, Judo or whatever. It’s so incredibly clear that what KF is looking for is “fighting skills”. I don’t see him running away from any WC people that come to him to test him or whatever.
The normal thing is to just look for people. A prejudice TOWARDS WC is just as wierd as a prejudice against it.
Not back fists and not from the clinch… back hands (for lack of a better term) and from chi sao.
Go over to the thread entitled “Brief clip of Alan Jensen”. Look through that clip and some of the other chi sao demos. Look for the numerous times that the back of the forearm is used to hit across the neck/trapezius area. These are the dumba$$ strikes I am talking about.
What was the traumatic WCK incident that so inflamed your heart that you have made bashing it such a big part of your life?
Reading some of the stupid posts that people here make.
YC-
I find it interesting that you are so keen on sending me to “be shown” things by someone you don’t even know who probably has no knowledge of me and who probably has no interest in this discussion. Do you always try to set up these things with people you don’t know?
How about YOU? Can YOU “show” me how real WC is effective?
Where exactly are you located?
Maybe you are in my back yard?
Or, if not, maybe you can “show” me sometime, as I do the occasional business travel around the country.
I think it would be helpfull if someone, like KF, would define trapping.
It seems boxing, thai boxing, wrasslin, etc all contain loads of trapping, and that wing chun doesnt offer anything unique to the fighting equation. There really is nothing new under the sun.
Eric Paulsons CSW is chuck full of trapping. When he says trapping doesnt work he is talking about complicated pre-arranged trapping sequences like the 20 standard Jun Fan pak-sau drills.
In CSW dvd#1 “Takedowns off the Punch” he teaches out of a basic Dan Inosanto/Larry Hartsell scoop/parry/pat format vs straight punches. The same stuff would be recognized by kali, jkd, and wck people as trapping, or by boxing/thai people as clinch work or entries. Nearly every sequence on the dvd starts with a trap or an entry into a trap.
Chops to the throat are not dumb IMO, but from the clinch? And clinch should be defined.. WCK elbows are better from certain clinch positions and they also can serve as escapes while doing damage..
There are dumb posts all over, even here and by you… Clearly your issues run deeper than that..
And I find it interesting that you continue to spend so much of your time bashing a style you see no value in…
I also find it interesting that you have such a good source of WCK right there but don’t seek them out to see what’s up–as I am sure some good WCK folks would accommodate you… Or why not just issue a general challenge to the WCK community..? :o
I am suggesting you work with folks like Lam, etc who have reached a high level of skill in the system so you can see some high quality WCK, since you seem so interested in WCK.. I live near Victor, moreover I do not consider myself to be a “high level” WCK person or Master level guy which is what I think you need to experience..
Plus why should I be inclined to waste more of my time on the likes of you?
Beyond that sir, you are wasting everyone’s time with this unending BS… Why not just go do whatever it is you like to train and let us poor misguided WCK folks to do our own thing? :rolleyes:
We already got your message dude, many times over, now, why not go pick on some Aikido forum, some of them are even worse…
I will refer you also to the Alan Jensen clip. There are numerous examples of WC trapping there. Basically, using a variety of techniques to end up with one or both arms holding down one or both of the opponent’s arms to set up or allow further striking to the head/neck area.
You won’t usually see those type of attempts at immobilization in boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, or freestyle fighting. Instead, you will see more along the lines of pummelling with overhooks and underhooks, 2 on 1’s, shoulder immobilization, etc.
Really, when is the last time you saw an effective chop to the throat in a fight? I’m sure they occur in your pretend fighting, but reality is a different matter.
Let me ask you this.
Have you ever had any training under Gary or even met him?
There is an easy cure for anyone who thinks that… there’s a little device called the ignore button.
There is a whole world outside of this kind of experience and your apparently microscopic world..
As it so happens a WCK buddy was nearly attacked by a punk with a knife.. As the punk drew the knife my buddy, just happend to use a series of “chops” to the throat.. This just happens to be what “came out” the knife popped out of the punk’s hands and both he and the knife landed on the ground, with the punk gagging and exclaiming, “your fuqin crazy!!”…
So you go sell your reality and leave us to ours..k?
No.
I have spoken with some folks that train with him, and I have several of his videos.. I have great respect for the man and IMO I can see the level of skill he has in addition to the opinion of folks I know that worked with him…
Not good enough for you?
What a shock..! But who cares? Not me…
Now, please consider that Aikido forum.. I will not waste any more time on this BS…
Well after reading through this thread I had to say something, why are so many people jumping on Knifefighter ? He does his thing, against full resistance and it works for him. His experience of WC says it does not work as intended, no one can show a video of WC working against a resisting opponent yet you all claim hes wrong, I think the WC community needs to show some proof before calling anyone else wrong about fighting a prepared opponent, note prepared, not a street fight etc. If there are great WC fighters out there I for one want to see the footage
