Questions for Knifefighter.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Bubble Boy

See what you have started with he shortest thread in history!!!:eek: :eek:

Personally if I get the chance, as I have the intention some day of doing a USA seminar tour (probably just one gig in Seattle when visiting my sister lol), I would like to meet up with Knifefighter as he seems like a guy who is passionate about his fighting skills, mind you he thinks I know f-all but then again he is as much a wind-up merchant as me :cool:

My view of Wing Chun is that it is simply the understanding of body mechanics related to fighting which is why there are similarities with many effective arts, then again there is a lot of cr@p Wing Chun instructors out there just as there is any system, boxing included.

Wing Chun has been called many derogatory things “girl fighting”, “street fighting”, “no kicking knowledge”, “no punching power”, if you know Wing Chun you should have the confidence in it and allow others their own opinions as you are better off meeting an uninformed opponent then a knowledgeable one:D

So keep hanging in there Knifefighter the size of the thread just shows you are getting people thinking :confused: :confused:

Bye from “Bubble Boy” and catch you later

42

So, your opinion of him being a top WC guy with great WC skills is based soley on talking to a few people who have trained with him and seeing him do chi sao drills? You have never touched hands with him, nor even seen him actually fight. How can you determine if someone is a “top” guy with only this?

Additionally, you are attempting to set up a fight between him and some stranger on the internet, although you’ve never met him or, even, talked to him.

Maybe you should talk to him first before sending people to fight him.

43

Actually, if you go back and do a search on my posts, I think you will find that I generally only post about subjects related to MMA, knife and stick work, and/or BJJ/wrestling/sub grappling (or in the case of this thread, things that are specifically directed at me). Those are all things that I actually do. And since I have previous experience in WC, wouldn’t it make sense that I would respond when somebody makes reference to WC in regard to these things- especially when they have limited or no experience in those things?

As far as bashing WC in general, again, if you do a search of my posts, I think you will find that any bashing I do is related to stupid statements related to one of the above subjects- usually by someone who doesn’t actually do those things. Since I actively do those things, doesn’t it make sense that I would respond to dumba$$ statements by others regarding the same?

Statements such as:

What is reality? You in the Ring? LOL
There is a whole world outside of this kind of experience and your apparently microscopic world..
As it so happens a WCK buddy was nearly attacked by a punk with a knife.. As the punk drew the knife my buddy, just happend to use a series of “chops” to the throat.. This just happens to be what “came out” the knife popped out of the punk’s hands and both he and the knife landed on the ground, with the punk gagging and exclaiming, “your fuqin crazy!!”…

You are basing your conclusion based on anecdotal evidence of what a friend told you? See what I mean… stupid statements like this deserve bashing. You have no knife fighting experience and you are saying that a back chop to the throat is a viable method to use against someone with a knife? After 20 years of knife experience, I can tell you that either this event did not happen the way your friend “remembers” it, or he was extremely lucky.

Back chops to the neck will generally get you gutted against a knife. If I were going to attack someone with a knife and they were going to try to do something to defend themselves, a back chop to the neck would be one technique I would prefer them to do in order to make my job that much easier.

Don’t you think it is strange that the only examples of back chops to the neck being used to good effect against resisting opponents are anecdotal? In my “microscopic world”, techniques need to be reproducible and consistently applicable to be considered viable- especially when it comes to defending against a blade.

44

Yet another example of a dumb generalization from someone who doesn’t have experience in the realm he is generalizing about. You don’t box and have no history of boxing training, yet you are saying this.

As a general rule, 49 of 50 times, if you go into any boxing, MT, wrestling, judo, sambo, or BJJ club, you will get good, solid instruction and develop workable skills regardless of the instructor. It is rare to find a cr@p instructor in one of these disciplines.

I would have serious doubts about anything that has a bunch of cr@p instructors, whether it be a martial arts system, a trade school, or a university- but, hey… that’s just me. I’m funny that way.

45

Actually, Alan Orr posted some video of him and his guys incorporating their WC into MMA. I’m reserving judgment on this because these were pretty limited rules fights with no headshots. It will be interesting to see how their standup WC skills translate into full rules MMA. I’m betting that as these guy gain experience and move into more liberal rules, the actual applications will end up being more similar to boxing and Muay Thai than to what the WC purists think of as WC fighting, but we’ll see.

46

Dale writes:

I’m betting that as these guy gain experience and move into more liberal rules, the actual applications will end up being more similar to boxing and Muay Thai than to what the WC purists think of as WC fighting, but we’ll see.

Fighting generally looks like fighting, not a ‘pure’ abstraction. As most WC people don’t fight, they don’t know what it looks or feels like, and expect it to look like the collection of drills and poses they think is Wing Chun. Every WC person I know who has gone and boxed, kickboxed, thai boxed, done judo, greco, or a ground art (and hasn’t just walked away from Wing Chun, as happens) has come to similar conclusions on what to stress in their personal Wing Chun.

Then again, I’m part of what some folks like to call ‘the reality-based community’.

Andrew

P.S. The Jensen clip- There are no back hands in that clip, and the ‘trapping’ is incidental and transitional, mostly a consequence of the usefulness of cutting a tight angle, with the elbows kept low, in the context of a drill. You probably don’t want to use the spider guard in MMA, but drilling it will probably give some students skills and tools useful in things besides the sport jiujitsu applications which they might not be able to develop otherwise.

BTW- The organization he heads has been doing monthly fullcontact for willing members for 15+ years, running full contact stickfights (under a fairly restrictive rule set- not as free as the Dog Brothers, but not as lame as WEKAF), has incorporated ground training with strikes since before UFC 1 and now has an extensive BJJ cross-training program, has a number of members who are fighting MMA (escrima/boxing/bjj base, WT/BJJ base, etc.), and has a bunch of bouncers in it who regularly take guys lacking ‘real world’ experience and get them gigs at the door.

<http://www.wingtsun.dk/&gt;

47

There are no absolutes.. The latest research says that the body will often react in unexpected ways when under the dump.. The position of the hand and body matter and folks cannot always take the perfect textbook position.. His hand may have been close to the person, or close enough to make that strike the closest and fastest move to land before the opponent got the blade out, one may also covered low with the other hand .. It happend, it worked. The ideal move, maybe not but schit happens..and IMO the strike in certain positions is valid..

As for setting up a fight, I said no such thing.. Regardless, what I see in Gary is quality WCK based on those I know who move and use WCK as he does with a similar level of skill. Moreover Gary specfically says in his video that nay sayers should drop by and since you are soooo skepical it seems a natural for you to go check him out, and I would think will all of the many posts you have made detracting from WCK that you would want to go see something good, which clearly you have not seen.

48

well you bash the wing chun training practices chi sao forms etc so you must be bashing wing chun!

hohoho wing chun effective in guard, you get that off the training forum :stuck_out_tongue:

now personally knifefighter what i think sucks is your attitude. i could be wrong about that (been wrong before) but youve got experience and expertise why not help people out instead of just cutting them down or is your game just ho ho ho look how ****ing clever i am pat myself on the back.

also when you talk about hooking up with wing chun people in LA there are a few people there you could easily meet up and train with and maybe youd school them (maybe not) but still you could get a good impression of what some people with really good wing chun skills and good training attitudes who have been about a bit have to offer.

also while its been mentioned what impression i got from gary lams wing chun was it was influenced by the reality and experience of muay thai but technically i was surprised how pure wing chun it was. anyway its lame setting other people up for a challenge or such bollocks but take a chill pill and go meet some cool people. its like a kung fu movie here everybody looking for a fight to the death you dishonored my style and my sifu HA!

1

49

This has been an interesting thread.

Those accusing Knifefighter of some demented or psychotic need to denigrate WC are attacking the man and not his arguments, the well-known fallacy of ad hominem. Such conduct says more about their personalities than his. It’s worth pointing out that he didn’t start this thread, either.

Suggesting he has to go out and fight “a master” to have credibility is plainly idiotic. If WC is so fantastic, YOU should be able to demonstrate it works. KF’s already said he’s willing to hook up with people and would probably be happy enough to be proved wrong, though he obviously thinks that’s an unlikely proposition. But saying, “you need to go here and fight this guy that neither of us have ever met, otherwise you’re a d!ck” is blatantly ridiculous.

I personally think KF adds value to the forum, even if he thinks it’s just a moderately interesting waste of time.

We’ve had challengers appear at our school. Funnily enough, they all seem to be from other WC schools. And to date, every single one of them has been totally useless when (WHEN, not IF) they got taken down. A few tried the thermonuclear option of throat or eye attacks, but all this did was encourage our guy to prolong their humiliation.

In LA, at least in the early days, as related by John Will a Machado BB who was actually there and dealt with challengers, you could walk into a Gracie or Machado school and get a fight any night of the week. The purple belts were expected to deal with such people, and in John’s time he and another then purple belt handled them all. Basically if you got through the purple you could then fight a BB instructor, but this never happened. I could tell you a hilarious story about a Ninja who wanted to fight guys at a BJJ school in Melbourne as part of his black belt grading and got choked out by a 12 year old boy as well as by about a hundred white belts, but there isn’t the space.

Maybe one of you guys daring KF to front up at Gary’s could front up at Rickson’s and act like an loudmouthed arrogant w@nker? Judging by posting performances here, that wouldn’t be exceptionally difficult. If KF should have to do it, why not you?

50

DUDE! i love those DVDs. i could talk all day about how many little moves in them are in the forms, chi sao etc and the little places where wing chuns “ineffective” training has tweaked to improve bits of my mma if its chisao for understanding lines of force and sensitivity etc or little things in the forms that make more improved mechanics obvious…

51

Or, more than likely, it never happened in the first place. Methinks you are too quick to believe your “friend’s” story.
LOL @ incapacitating a knife wielding opponent with neck chops where he falls on the ground choking and saying “you’re crazy”!:cool:

52

I also bash many of the standup self-defense techniques of BJJ. That doesn’t mean I am bashing BJJ in general… just some of the training practices.

Does WC training consist only of chi sao, forms and wooden dummy work? If so, then I guess I am bashing the entire thing. If not, then just some aspects of the training.

Not sure what you mean by this… care to elaborate?

I’ve tried that before. I attempted to get a discussion going about how chi sao should be more like pummelling and clinch work, but that was blasphemy and no one wanted to hear that. I tried to get a thread going on the technical aspects of the clips posted on another thread and got only one response. Seems like people are more interested in arguing. That’s probably more entertaining anyway.

Let me state this one more time. I’ve already had the opportunity to feel traditional WC from pretty much the “highest” skill levels. I have no need to race around and try to find the next guy who is the “real” high skill level guy. If a WC guy feels the need to come to me and show me I have reach an incorrect conclusion, he is welcome to do that.

Oh, and by the way, since this thread is about me :rolleyes: …when it comes right down to it, I can actually do a pretty mean a$$ chi sao myself.

I did spend about 8 years doing it, so at least I have something to show for my effort.

53

Finally, a breath of fresh air. Someone who knows what he is talking about.

Refresh my memory, Andrew. Are you the guy who trains at Emin’s in LA and at Eddie Bravo’s?

You are right… my bad. I watched many of the clips on that page and thought that was one of the ones that had the “forearm neck chops”.

.
I’m a big fan of a modified spider guard in MMA fights and have seen it used to good effect… but that’s a whole different subject and this thread is about me, damitt:) :eek:

54

Well what a surprise–not good enough for you… Nothing anyone says is going to be good enough for you we’re all liars… great.

Hey man, I know the guy and I know he would never lie about such a thing..

It sounded very much like other encounters I have had or seen when the “aggressor’s” intent is pre-empted and he experiences sudden violence he will often turn into a cry baby and complaining of psychopathic intentions.

But this was about the chops and if you have the right position, which is what WCK is all about then they make perfect sense to use..

A series of neck chops, called lan sao can knock someone down and cut off good air flow. But most any correct WCK attack, which issues continuous CG energy, normally will knock them down or down and out–WCK steals balance, another system attribute, that applies continuity of attack with CG control. It is the combination of continuity and CG <center> energy issuing that makes it happen often enough.

Do you see a “knife fight” or more properly termed, an “edged weapon encounter”, as a duel between two guys with blades, where they brandish them, and then attempt to cut each other?

55

Thank God he didn’t say Sand Bag… That would really have ruined it for me…

56

Um, no… more like this:

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

Click on the “Die Less Often” clip.

57

Hey Dale,

Finally, a breath of fresh air. Someone who knows what he is talking about.

Refresh my memory, Andrew. Are you the guy who trains at Emin’s in LA and at Eddie Bravo’s?

that’s me. I haven’t been at Eddie’s in a couple of years (besides Mark Menendez’s wrestling class there while it was going) as life, injuries, and marrige have been limiting my grappling.

I’m a big fan of a modified spider guard in MMA fights and have seen it used to good effect… but that’s a whole different subject and this thread is about me, damitt

What lop sao is only good when you’re laying down? :wink: Besides, rubber guard roolz d00d! Itz 2 deahdly for MMA!

<As I shudder at the spirit of the UG temporarily possessing me>.

I’ve been staying out of this present whole Wing Chun/MMA imbroglio as have many of the people who’ve actually gone out cross-trained and fought, 'cos, frankly, I’ve seen way more horrible Wing Chun than you and am pretty equivocal about launching defenses of Wing Chun on message boards at this point, having little urge to defend cr*p and provide rationalizations for people like crimson ghost.

Anyway, a quick idea that translates well from Wing Chun- the ‘structure’ idea people go on about is essentially framing against the ground (how to get power with it is a different discussion). When someone puts you in the plum, if you keep your head up (or get it up by dipping your hips to recover your neck- the weird bow in Biu Tze should show how to use the back during this safely), and meet the pressure of the elbows on the chest (plum where they pinch the elbows together, pull the top of the head, lever pushing with the elbows, drive with the hips) trying to get under the pressure from the elbows with your hips- this is using the basic posture of Wing Chun, framing the attempt to lever your neck down using the elbows as fulcrum by getting under the fulcrum point with your chest and using it their elbows as the fulcrum point to attempt to control them as you counter/escape. This same idea comes out in a basic side control escape on the ground when you push your far arm across the face or upper chest to make space- this is lan sao (the arm bent at 90 degrees position done with both arms in the first form in the section after the slow goofy bit)- which you then extend press down and away as you move your hips out shrimping - a transition to gum- using your whole body to press or pin making room to generate optimum angles for generating force by shifting your hips out.

That was way wordier than I wanted it it to be. Anyway for useful stuff on those clips- frame.

Andrew

58

Was he coaching a competitor at the Abu Dhabi championships last year in Long Beach?

59

Fellows who never tossed a fist in their lives became trainers. They mistaught boys in gymnasiums. Those mistaught youths became would-be fighters for a while; and when they hung up their gloves, they too became instructors.

It was only natural that the tide of palooka experts should sweep into the amateur ranks, where lack of knowledge among instructors today is as pathetic as among professional handlers. And that’s not the worst. Too many amateur instructors have forgotten entirely that the purpose of boxing lessons is to teach a fellow to defend himself with his fists; not to point him toward amateur or professional competition with boxing gloves.

To a menacing extent the major purpose of fistic instruction has been by-passed by amateur tutors who try to benefit themselves financially, indirectly or directly, by producing punchless performers who can win amateur or professional bouts on points.

Not one youth in fifty has any ambitions to become a professional fighter when he first goes to an instructor. That’s particularly true among college and high-school lads. Yet the instructors continue teaching boys to become “smart” boxers instead of well-rounded fighters. And that’s a downright shame, for punch is absolutely essential in fist-fighting and it’s an invaluable asset in amateur or professional boxing. Actually, it’s stupid instead of smart instruction to teach other fighting movements to a boy before he has been taught to punch.

Because of this commercial, win-on-a-point-as-soon-as-possible attitude among modern instructors, the amateur and professional ranks today are cluttered with futile “club fighters” and “fancy Dan’s.” In the professional game there are so few genuine fighters that promoters find it almost impossible to make enough attractive matches to fill their boxing dates.

At this writing, lack of worthwhile talent in the heavyweight division is particularly appalling.

Not my words but mirrors my opinion

60

Nah. Clinch is clinch, chi sao is chi sao [end hokey Chinese voiceover].

If there is standard WC that has clinch work that is up to par with MT, boxing and wrestling that’s news to me… maybe there is a clip or two of that approach out there that you could point me towards.
The ‘standard’ gag’s a bit of a Catch 22. My teacher taught me that fuk sao is good as a round the back of the head control for jerking the head and upper body about like in MT (as in the first move of the dummy for a start), kao sao and double gan are good for working their way into clinch (we worked it as a drill that years later I know resembles swimming but I know that teacher never did any wrestling) and working for underhooks and that the elbows and hooks from chum kiu and biu gee work very nicely over the top in the clinch and while disengaging. For example.

Mostly we worked it in rather dead drills, though of course we would be encouraged to use everything in sparring.

Is it standard WC? For me yes it is, and when I started in shooto it worked very nicely and my shooto teacher thought I’d done wrestling before and recognised what I was doing as good clinch work. I’ve not really met anyone else in WC who’s done the same kind of clinch work though.

Is it on a par with boxing, wrestling and Thai? Dunno, probably not for the lack of live practise but I hold my own and have a different way of working the clinch to the other guys in the class… but I’m glad of the chance to practise more live clinch work in the shooto classes.

For me, I forget exactly what my teacher taught me and what I’ve found out/made up for myself. I know that he taught me those apps and I’ve used them effectively in sparring with other arts. And since I know he only had done aikido (and the wettest style at that) before his chun they must have come from chun.

I suppose that brings me nicely round to yours and Andrew’s point about what fighting looks like.

My shooto teacher incidentally started in WC in US and then HK, learned the whole system and subsequently completely abandoned it after training and winning Thai comps in Thailand, and going back to his wrestling roots, his family being wrestlers. When I started training with him he didn’t recognise any of the things I was doing as WC… and complimented me on my use of swimming for positional control, the plum and the escape (both) that Andrew was just talking about etc, forgetting that he hadn’t actually shown me them in the class. When we talked about it later I said he hadn’t shown me it and it was just what I brought from WC, and he thought I was on crack until I explained it and showed him.

I’m not much of a natural grappler, and I’m still not very good, but the energetics (relaxing, not giving anything to work on) I find easy after the chun, and that includes some dodgy apps I was shown from guard by my non-grappling WC teacher.

My WC bros sometimes say, “Mat, you’re boxing!!” until I show them slowly what I did. So your comment ‘the actual applications will end up being more similar to boxing and Muay Thai than to what the WC purists think of as WC fighting, but we’ll see.’ may be true of wing chun purists but what do they know!? :smiley: They’re in the box.

BTW I don’t have any ‘footage’ of WC clinch work: I don’t have a camera, and my main training partner is very secretive about his WC :eek: ! My description will have to do.