Victor- answer my questions.
Good point - it is possible in the guard. But What questions?
Didn’t see your previous post with questions. Okay..fair enough.
I’ve never met/worked out with Gary - but after watching many short vids of his…and knowing what I know from having over 31 years in the game…I’d say that he’s one of the best I’ve ever seen in wing chun. (Much better than you-know-who).
Have you ever met/worked out with Chuck Liddell or Randy Couture?
Probably not - but you’re certainly qualified enough to pass judgment based upon what you’ve seen of them second hand.
I can pass judgement on them because I’ve seen them fight.
I’ve seen them destroy other professional fighters.
I have trained with guys who I know are skilled who said they got schooled by them when they sparred with them.
That’s how I judge who is the “best out there.”
Are you saying that you determine who the best guys in WC are by watching demonstration videos?
But that’s not the case on THIS thread. I refer you to page one for reference.
I’ll try to make this easy for you, Omar. You can’t answer these questions over the internet.
The questions posed on page one of this thread by the original poster can be answered easily enough over the internet.
And Omar, since he keeps coming back to this forum, a WC forum, why would I suggest he go to choy li fut or judo?
What does choy li fut have to do with the merits or demerits of chi sao? If he really had moved on from WC as you say, then why is he here on this forum with these questions? See how stupid your post is?:o Ah, maybe you just like being KF’s cheerleader.
Fill in the blank with whatever art you want. That’s what is meant by the mysterious phrase “or whatever” that I included in the list of arts you could suggest. Sorry the use of the hypothetical ot make a point was too fancy for you to follow.
Point remains the same. Endlessly insisting that he just didn’t find the right WC guy and implying that somehow if he did he could have his eyes opened is retarded. No. I actuallyt don’t like being his cheerleader because most of the time I think he’s an ignoramous when it comes to CMA but in this particular case he is speaking the voice of reason and the rest of you all are coming off like a bunch of thoroughly brainwashed nutriders. (with a couple of exceptions. AndrewS comes to mind and I am sure there are one or two others that I missed)
The “advice” to keep looking has no merit. My guess is that he (KF) has got better WC than the majority of idjuts singing it’s praises. I can demonstrate better WC than most of the people I’ve met who actually train it just based on my general southern gong fu skill and the cross training I’ve done in the past. Get over it. It’s a stupid “argument” (as in bulding an argument for debate) and I expect KF keeps trolling the WC forums becuase…
It’s just too easy.
I challenge KF detractors to knife duels!
However, what’s sad is that you guys LOVE it. When knife, myself, MP, etc. post on the mma related threads over here, you guys jump on the thread, EVERY time, trying to prove one way or another how you are right and we are wrong… From what I know of KF, he’s probably got more competition experience than anyone else in this thread, AND he’s trained in the style he’s “bashing” unlike some of you, who have no sport fighting training.
:eek:
The book is Championship Fighting, Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense, published by Prentice-Hall but has been out of print for a long while.
It is an excellent instructional book putting over how he undertood boxing from his days of bare-knuckle into gloved fighting, he also has his own way of putting his message across.
Chapter 1 of 25
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.
No sh1t!
Those arguing against KF should put in the time in the other arts he has trained…then what will they think?
Then again KF not seeing any value in WC could be a direct result of his disdain for it.
You can’t benefit from something you don’t believe in…
…and yes, it’s about belief, regardless of style. Of course, those who train realistically will definately have a stronger belief in their ability (at least a more structurally sound one).
Point/Set/Match- Gabe gets pw3nd by Omar.
The troops are rallying.
This is fun. I like having a thread about me.
I’ll be back.
i posted in my blog on the training forum about wing chun being useful for gnp in guard about a week or two ago before you posted wing chun has some uses in the guard 
yup real martial art discussion just doesnt have that draw. the longest threads are always ones with people whineing and *****ing or cult of personality stuff (not doing too bad yourself :p). but there have been some v.good info too… i dunno just from some of your posts it comes off like you enjoy tapping out white belts just a little too much hahaha
thats cool. one thing is though wing chun has no checks like a sport martial art would so there are professional full time wing chun instructors who are very poor fighters but then a few people out there who do it as a hobby and keep pretty quite who can rip **** up. also its so full of opinions grandmasters whos the best etc and they can be very different.
Oh, and by the way, since this thread is about me :rolleyes: …when it comes right down to it, I can actually do a pretty mean a$$ chi sao myself.
I did spend about 8 years doing it, so at least I have something to show for my effort.
hahaha soak in your fifteen minutes 
of course i love it i train mma and wing chun
No Dale, I don’t just go by videos to judge people’s wing chun - not at all.
When I was a student of William Cheung for only about a year, I took a private lesson with him wherein at one point I asked him to “check” my chi sao - and he took it to mean something different.
Push literally came to shove - and I then decided to go all out to hit him during the chi sao…at which point it became a full contact sparring match with no protective gear…
And he proceeded to punch, palm strike, and throw me all around the room nonstop for about 2 minutes before I said that I had enough…bloodied my mouth…must have hit me at least 20 times (I think I hit him twice)…and thank God he was being kind and didn’t hit me with full power (or with a kick)…as his kicks back in those days were awesome. (1985)
And there have been other wing chun people (or non-wing chun people) with whom I’ve chi sao’ed or sparred full contact with - as well as the 10 or so students I’ve had through the years who could really fight (be it using wing chun, boxing, kickboxing, karate, or any combo of them all)…most of whom are bigger and weigh more than me (about 7 of them are at least 6’ tall - and about 5 of them 200 lbs. or more)…who I’ve sparred full contact dozens of times each - allowing them to come at me full force and forget that I’m “sifu” for the moment.
You always resort to this kind of argument, Dale…but your attempts to change the subject still leaves open the question as to why - after beating down on virtually everything (and everyone) connected with wing chun on this forum for so long…and in fact it was on a thread like this one some 6-8 months ago wherein you said something to the effect that…“yeah, I should go see Gary Lam to be fair about it” (fair about not having a double standard with your criticisms of people who want to talk but not actually go and find out what works and what doesn’t “first hand”)…
So again I’ll ask: If you’re so convinced that wing chun has virtuaully nothing to offer except when on the ground and caught in someone’s guard…Why not go and check out someone who many people agree is one of the best wing chun guys around - especially since he lives right in your own backyard?
well not quite but your coming close to bashing gary lam and he does have muay thai experience so for me i’d think hmmm maybe somethings going on, or maybe i dont know all the facts etc. really the only way to know whats up with gary is to go visit. back to the point i totally agree in bashing the training methods outdated ideas of what other fighters do etc etc aww man how come everything turns into a two sided argument!
i guess your not talking me personally but everyone “you guys”? 1.wasnt me 2. i train mma too
anyway i definitely have seen posts on here were ive thought his attitude sucks, again ive been wrong about that before. i see the criticism just not much constructive thats all. i think i summed it up when i said about him enjoying tapping out white belts a little too much. and weve got kfs answer pretty much he does it for fun. fair enough not how id spend my time personally but hey whatever floats your boat. theres the answer end of thread
Gary Lams Wing Chun videos are not very good.
:rolleyes:
Isn’t skill a relative term?
How much skill does the opponent have?
How much skill do I have?
What style fighter is he?
I think there is a big difference these days in the US for example of how folks fight in general vs. how folks used to fight in the old days when WCK was gaining popularity in China.. I also think that how you use your WCK can, will and must change as you fight folks who fight differently… Folks who fight for example, using a Southern Chinese system will not fight the same way as a modern Western Boxer will.. So what works or what happens with one may not work or happen with another…
Victor,
Have you never “trapped” as described anyone in sparring? I know I have.., Now were they “highly skilled” folks no, probably not, given the standards folks are using here, but again isn’t this all relative?
If “he” was better then maybe the “trap” wouldn’t have happened.. But what if he was better AND I was better too..?
I know that trapping in this way did not happen the same way when I sparred my boxer student but it did happen on occasion when the position was correct albeit in a different way… I just don’t see the absolutes that everyone is using here: This cannot work, that cannot work…etc, it all depends on who and how we’re talking about what..
I also don’t see folks talking about the right context for the moves and how the training is supposed to relate to real world conditions, like position and range and energy… “Trapping” is what happens at a certain ranges and under certain conditions of position and energy–IMO WCK is not all about trapping in this context… There is no reason to use moves that clear the line if he ain’t on the line..and HIA–I know you know what that means–will work under a variety of conditions that may or may not resemble a classic trap. Studying energy also doesn’t mean you HAVE to “trap”, rather you can simply use sensitivity to attach, or find openings, or determine where the line needs to be moved to..
But IMO if any “WCK stuff” works in sparring then it can work PERIOD, maybe not against “SUPER FIGHTERS” but then again how many of us WCK folks train as hard and as long as semi-pro or pro “super” fighters?
Interesting, if criptic comment..
Who in your opinion has some “good” WCK videos?
Kenneth Chung, Eddie Chong, Francis Fong, and some others. I have an extensive video library.
I have not seen a video of a Gary Lam seminar, only the 3-tape instructional series.
I dont think knifefighter has released any Instructionals, but he does make appearances on tape/dvd.
This is too easy. Stricker is right its like tapping white belts.
Why dont I specifically search out Gary Lam?
First of all, Im not the kind of person who just walks into an instructors studio and challenges him. Since Gary doesnt spar and chi sao isnt going to tell me anything, the only other option is to fight. Thats not cool from my point of view to walk around doing that.
Secondly, lets say that we could figure out a way for me to judge his abilities, or we did a challenge match and he beat me convincingly. That would not convince me that the various aspects of WC that I think of as ineffective and inefficient suddenly are. My conclusion would be that he is good [SIZE=“3”]DESPITE[/SIZE] his WC training, not [SIZE=“3”]BECAUSE[/SIZE] of it.
Next, let’s say I met him and came away thinking he was nothing special. You would just tell me to go find the next “real” top guy, or that he didn’t show me the “real” stuff, or he took it easy on me, etc.
And finally, you cannot judge a systems effectiveness based on the top practitioners. You have to look at the average practitioner. I can walk into just about any BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai gym and see or feel multiple examples of average practitioners applying realistic and effective techniques from their respective systems. Many of these mid-level practitioners will give me a hard time, or even beat me, in sparring using exactly the same techniques they use in practice. On the other hand, I can walk into just about any WC studio and completely shut down the average practitioners chi sao (and could probably do so with many of the top guys) not to mention the fact that the average practitioner in WC doesnt even spar.
I can see thousands of examples of the average practitioners of BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai effectively applying their systems against fully resisting opponents. Not so with WC..
If I can only see examples of effective WC from its very top guys, it tells me that my criticisms of it are probably valid.
I think it is fair to say after these comments that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to convince Knifefighter of anything regarding WC’s effectiveness or the effectiveness of someone using the WC delivery system.
I have met Gary Lam, touched hands with him and have received instruction from him. I have studied the DVD’s, and learned a ton more from students of his. His WC is very good, but it is not only his WC that makes him good, it is himself and what he has done with it that makes him a skilled fighter. To me, Sifu Lam takes the principal of Economy of Motion to the max when he engages another in a fighting atmosphere. He uses what he needs from his personal experiences and what WC has taught him. IMO he is not a WC robot, meaning he does not form stances or looks for traps, he just fights based on pure naturalness and instinct. Now, if someone does not have his training and fighting background, they will not be able to duplicate his effectiveness. I for one am a example of this. Yeah, I know all about the concepts and principals behind what I am supposed to do, but I have 1) not fully absorbed the body mechanics and reflexes of what WC is teaching me, 2) not tested it out in a real environment under real stress and pressure. Sifu Lam has and has been doing so for years upon years. He is a great example of someone that has the best of both worlds, a superb technician with vast understand of a method of combat, combined with natural reaction and fighting instincts developed from years of pressure testing and experiences. Most of us fall into one category or another.
I for one believe in the fact that if he can do, so can I. I also know this about myself, I’m not as interested as some about fighting people or styles and how well I would do against them. This is a question with to many variable attached to it, and know one can answer this honestly with 100% accuracy. All you can do it try your hardest to get out of it with minimal injury to yourself, and maximum damage to the other guy. There are allot of Martial Arts out there that can turn you into a deadly fighting machine, if that is what you want out of it and train like a madman. Not all of us are looking for that angle from Martial Arts training. I like training it, learning something knew and teaching it to others and seeing that same pleasure come out of them as I get from it personally. So what you want out of it, effects how you will think about it and use it.
I also believe how one trains effects greatly how one will use what they have learned while under great pressure. I believe whole-heartedly, that if anyone on here trained like Knifefighter does (I’m under the assumption that Knifefighter trains similarly if not the same as most MMA people do, similar to the guys on the UFC show), they too would be very effective in using WC against another fighter from any system of fighting. I also believe to a small degree that what you learn does reflect in how effective you will be, but in the end it is how you train that matters most. To me the problem that exists in the WC world today is people listen to the legends and think, “Oh, all I have to do is learn this form and that technique, add in a little chi sau and I’m unbeatable, because what I’m doing is so much more effective than anything else out there”. I used to think this way. The fact of the matter is, most WC people are too lazy in how they train to realistically use what are learning. Forms, chi-sau are all just learning tools designed to give you a possible advantage in all sorts of given situations. They are not the be all end all of fighting and to think so is a mistake IMO. They are starting points to teach beginners bodies how to react and move in a Simple, Efficient and Direct way. More and more I’m am starting to believe that WC is a training system, a way to develop certain attributes in the body to allow one to defend themselves against all kinds of physical aggression vs. being a fighting system whichs tells us exactly what we should do in this or that situation. I will never express WC the same way Sifu Lam does or any one else that teaches me, nor will the students that I teach express it just like me. We are all individuals with different ideas, different ways of thinking and different ways of expression.
James