Did you ask your first wing chun sifu for permission to study another version of wing chun? I have heard that some sifus would consider it disrespectful to study at another school. I tend to think that this would be especially diffficult if you study a version of Yip Man Wing Chun and you wanted to study another version of Yip Man’s style, since all versions are so similiar. If you have studied multiple versions of Yip Man’s WC, what reason did you give your sifu for wanting to? I would like to because I have heard the slight variations in each version add something good to you self-defense toolbox, although I am afraid that sifu would consider it disrepectful if I told him that. Thanks in advance.
dude
what year are you living in
who gives a rats a$$ what your sifu thinks or says , your an individual , do your own thing
any sifu that tells there student there not allowed to visit or train in any other wing chun systems or martial arts
is some one who doesn’t trust what they are teaching
and is afraid of losing a student [ money] to some one else
if the ‘‘sifu’’ is confident of his teachings then he should have no problem with his students venturing out in the world infact he should encourage it as part of the students learning process
to many martial arts systems are set up like pyramid scams with mass brainwashing
the simple fact that a person would even consider what there sifu would think blows me away
Exactly!!!
Dude…this aint ancient China. If your “sifu” might get “upset”…give him the boot.
This is a recurrent problem. I believe it is more or less of how to deal with the pain of separation. Whatever you decide, it’s always a human thing to part in good terms. Teachers are coaches or guides in your path of self-discovery. They deserve much respect and appreciation in return. If they don’t like your decision, at least you have a clear conscience. This is very important to me.
Regards,
PH
phantom:
I’ve got to take a little issue with Ernie and Dhira (KWJ) on this - even though I agree with them on so many other things - and always welcome and respect their input…
I have a real life story that directly relates to your questions…I was with Moy Yat (also a direct student of Yip Man) for exactly 8 years - I started on May 16th, 1975.
In late 1982 William Cheung first went public with the whole Traditional Wing Chun thing…the “missing footwork”…the central-line principle (in addition to the centerline), the blindside strategy, etc…and I was so enthralled with his magazine articles and the photos that I started working with his stuff - sometimes right even in Moy Yat’s classes (of which I was one of about three people who was doing most of the teaching)…Moy Yat eventually saw this and hit the roof !!!
On thing led to another…he called me into his office one day - we had a big argument about a number of things (with Cheung’s stuff being at the top of the list)…I walked out and never went back…What was most amazing was that the date was May 16th, 1983.
I became a student of William Cheung in August, 1983.
Now this is an extreme example - but looking back I can definitely see why Moy Yat would be upset - even if I hadn’t done any of Cheung’s stuff in the school.
To do a crosstraining thing would be less sticky, IMO - but to simultaneously have two different Wing Chun instructors - and expect them (especially the original instructor) not to be upset about it - is probably expecting way too much.
I walked in unannounced one weekday afternoon and visited Moy Yat at his school quite a few years later, paid my respects, and had a pleasant chat - which I’m very happy that I did - because I learned a lot from him…and never saw him again. He passed away and I went to the funeral parlor in Chinatown here in NYC to pay my final respects several years ago.
Victor,
Good post! I like to clarify somethings. I know Ernie would do exactly the same thing as I said in my post. I think the issue that he and Dhira raised is that you take responsibility for your own life direction. They may be a little blunt in putting their point across, but their heart is gold.
Regards,
PH
victor
i think we have a different era thing , plus moy yat [ who i respect ] was into the who disciple thing . that stuff makes me turn and run
but i know it’s old school and traditional
obviously i am not
in a sense or two a degree i have 2 wing chun teachers and had 2 others before
gary is the one i invest in because he pulls his $hit off and knows how to teach it .
hawkins is more of a friend but just last weekend i spent an hour with him at garys school after everyone left ‘’ we are all friends ‘’
since gary has told me to teach , he also told me he excpects me to go out and work out with as many wing chun and non wing chun people as i can
to learn and gain experience [ i would do this anyway ]
because of this openess i will stay and help him with all that i can
like i would with any friend , no strings attached
but the minute it becomes a sifu order thing he knows i would be out , and he respects that about me
so i give respect to those that are respectful to me and i am loyal to my friends
i keep it simple
In a sense, Gary and you are a perfect fit. “Sifu” always says that he is not interested in trapping any of his students! Ha! Ha! We’re just loyal because he is a good coach. One good turn deserves another!
Regards,
PH
i think you hit it on the nose
about it having to fit
i would never feel comfortable in a place that was traditional in the sense of uniforms and bowing , belts , stuff like that
i did in my youth and hated it
now some other people like all that stuff and would hate it if it was missing
so to them it has meaning and then they might feel the bond between sifu and student as more then just a coach as i see it
but i still don’t get why a teacher would tell a student there is no need to look anywhere else , that would raise flags with me
but i’m off subject and would like to say sorry to the original poster .
Is your question around studying from more than one teacher or school at a time? Or changing from one teacher to another? Just want to be sure I understand your question in context, lest I get on about something in my own experiences that may be wholly irrelevant.
In the generic sense, I must agree with Paul. Balancing our personal needs or wants with due consideration toward others is never inappropriate. No less toward those who have given much of themselves by way of investing in us (e.g., our teachers). People are complex creatures, such that even if we do all the seeming “right” things or make all the appropriate judgments, there is no guarantee our ideal outcome will materialize, or that others will respond as we might wish. We can only try our best to perceive and balance what is most important and, as we proceed, treat others and ourselves with sincere consideration and respect. A little empathy and The Golden Rule, while not panaceas, can be helpful allies when things get murky. I guess it goes without saying I am not very big on a screw-you type of attitude, LOL.
Enough of my off-hand generalizations, and back to wondering about your particular scenario.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Kathy,
It’s never generalization when it comes to cultivation of good characters. Thank for your heartfelt post!
Regards,
PH
Victor, IMO if we agreed on every single thing, something would be wrong. We are already on the same page anyways, so it’s a difference of opinion. No big deal really.
Thing is, I agree with the reasons you left Moy Yat. i, like Ernie and like Kathy stated, think you should be responsible for…you. All that tradition “sifu” stuff hinders people from true learning IMO.
I too had the same experience as you. Before Wing Chun, I was a Kenpoist. The place I trained at quite simply…suck’d. They were all about learnign as many forms as possible, even making some up so that each belt could have more forms & katas to learn. They hardly ever sparred. They couldnt fight. it was horrible. 2 years was all i could take and I left for a Kenpo place that fought all the tiem & hardly did forms. (in fact it was a breeding/training ground for the early UFC fighters which is where I got my intro to MMA). My former instructor hit the roof badmouthed the other guys even though they would have wiped the floor with him & demanded I come back. i wrote him a letter politely telling him where to place his demand.
Fast forward a few years. I’m studying BJJ. At the studio I go to the people are ENCOURAGED…even begged to go train elsewhere and experience what other BJJ styles are out there and how we compare. Why? to improve & learn. The teacher knows his stuff is good, and isnt afraid to have his students compare it, This is the difference with modern day performance based training and the outdated, destructive, traditional approach. In the end, it’s all about you, not some ‘sifu’ or ‘master’. After all if you dont find what’s best for you, that ‘master’ wont show up when you’re about to get your @ss kicked. no magic bat signal for you. Only your honest evaluation of your training and whehter or not you took the steps YOU feel are necessary for YOU to get the best out of what you want.
Dhira,
Good honest post from an honest trainer! My former coaches said very much the same things as you. They told me to always question whether one trains honestly or not. Not an easy task as learning is fun but training is boring! Ha! Ha!
Regards,
PH
ok, my story’s a little different;started with one Sifu with a friend, but he dropped out and since I couldn’t do chi-sao without a partner, so did I-probably was a bad move(this was with Alan Lamb in his basement in Flushing, in retrospect, I should’ve stayed and trained with Sifu Lamb one on one-stupid kid)
The next Sifu I left because I simply didn’t have the funds, and at the time, he was trying to decide if he was Moy Yat, William Cheung, or JKD-but the training was good. Sifu three was a work partner who studied with Inosanto, Hawkins Cheung, Augie Fong, and Duncan Leung-I guess he never stayed in one place-didn’t stay here long either-but it was fun while it lasted.Best chi-sao teacher I ever had-but I learned by getting whupped. Next guy was teaching Wing Chun and Hung-Ga together, but his Wing Chun was not what I was looking for. He had size and used it more than technique, and the chi-sao was based on "tricks’ rather than sensitivity and skill. We later broke ties under not so great circumstances-water under the bridge. Another guy was teaching under Moy Yat and we trained together in exchange for using my space to teach. He was ok, but didn’t have much energy, so his school never took off. But he did. Kinda just stopped showing up. I had another guy who we exchanged Bak Mei for Wing Chun, I believe he said his Sifu trained under Wong Shum Leung-in any event-he had some real good reaction drills. Most recently I was training with Sifu Alan Lee, who didn’t care who I studied with, as long as I train now. Period. Nothing to prove.
So, basically I did not have a problem since I was not under any specific teacher while studying under another-except the Hung-Ga guy and the Moy Yat guy, and they were friends, so there was no problem anyway. I think that if you study under more than one teacher of the same style it might be of concern to the Sifu that you will not be able to embrace his teachings because you are really sitting on the fence. There will always be some shred of doubt, or confusion. Kind of like a full cup. To go the next step and actually demonstrate and practice the other guy’s stuff in class is showing a complete lack of respect for the Sifu, whether or not he even knows about it. The issue isn’t that he would be insecure, but one of respect. Giving face. Since you were an instructor there-worse still, because you were basically sending the message to the students that Sifu’s stuff wasn’t good. That was a long time ago, and you were young. You grew up, became a Sifu in your own right, and even paid respects to your Sifu later, which shows your character.
To illustrate this a bit more, there was this Hung-Ga/Wing Chun Sifu, (who shall remain nameless)and he allowed a guy from another system SPM(one that this Sifu wanted to learn)in his school. This guy paid no tuition, simply came down to train and play chi-sao with the other students. He wanted all the benifits, but did not support the Sifu. Worse yet, when he was on the floor, he would constantly talk about how Hung-Ga and Wing Chun were no good. Again, not giving face to the Sifu. AND he was a guest in the school. So what would YOU do?
Re: Question for those who have studied many different versions of Wing Chun.
Phantom
Alan Lee Sifu is very confident his wing chun ability and teaching ability. He has told me, has encouraged me and others to see others wing chun schools and exchange ideas if possible. If I saw something better than I could leave his school. He saw this with a smile and I havent seen anything like his wing chun in NYC.
However some sifus arent that open minded. This is America and not China, but if have close relationship with your Sifu, then I think you should ask him for his opinion. However if you have business relationship, then heck ya do as you will brother.
Traditionally, yes it would be disrespectful to study at another school but times has changed. The only problem is that you never get a stable foundation and your wing chun will never get better if you study we many wing chun sifus. No, not all versions are so similiar, especially in Yip Man Wing Chun. TWC and HFY are pretty standard, but in YIp Man WC families, it could be like light and day brother.
If you have studied multiple versions of Yip Man’s WC, what reason did you give your sifu for wanting to? You should say, “Sifu, I am interested in learning from another teacher and you sux. So I am paying you anymore, so bye, ok?”
This is America and not China
Actually it’s the rest of the world, not just America, as much as some Americans seem to forget.
As much as some might like to think differently, a teacher is a human being like everyone else. These situations can be dealt with well or poorly by both student and teacher.
It would generally be polite to discuss the situation with your current Sifu before leaving … unless the guy is unreasonable himself (and some are). As long as you’re up front about what you are trying to find by seeking extra/other tuition, it SHOULD be OK (unless one of you is being a d*ck). If you point out what you feel you are missing, your current instructor might even be able to rectify the situation, he may have misjudged your aspirations or something.
OTOH, if a student has aspirations his Sifu recognises can’t be fulfilled in his current school, he should let that person move on.
It’s probably too much to expect that he will continue to treat you exactly the same as people that spend more time with him than you will in future. It’s always a two way street, and only a fool keeps giving if he gets nothing back, or worse, his sincere efforts on your behalf are ignored or denigrated.
Treat it not as a master/student in the Shaolin Temple type of relationship, but rather one between two mature adults, one of whom wants to change the nature of the relationship without unnecessarily p*ssing off the other.
Andrew
>>Actually it’s the rest of the world, not just America, as much as some Americans seem to forget…<<
I’m in Canada every weekend and I have friends from all over the world who have similar opinions. Fortunately I’m not a part of that “some” you mentioned. Anyway, I had my own business and had someone to run it so I was able to study from different schools at the same time. For a while I studied 2 versions of WC at the same time. The subject just never came up during classes though 
Both of my WC lineages are YM lineages, one is technique oriented, the other is energy oriented (I don’t mean “muscle” energy, far from it). I am still in good relationship with my first Sifu, I simply faded away from his school after I got married. I went to a different lineage because I felt like I needed more exercises and my WC sucked (trust me, it’s true!). Once in a while I go Dim Sum, or have a late night coffee with my first Sifu. We are more like friends then Sifu-Student at this point.
The transition from a technique base art to an energy base art is - painfull but enlightening. Everything about WC as I knew it came to an end, the world fell apart in front of me. All the so called Pak Sau, Gum Sau, Gaan.. whatever, don’t work in front of the energy realm people! I thought I could ChiSau, but,… wait a minute, in front of the heavy hands, I could only roll for may be a minute or two… (true story from yylee, you don’t get to hear it else where!).
In my own experience, energy base and technique base WC are disjoint set of studies. You cannot have both at the same time, may be they meet at some point, which I doubt. The two paths are very different. For beginners may be it is better to choose one of your own liking. Techniques, IMHO, are not something you could freeze and teach it like step 1, 2, 3 and bingo. They need to be driven by a good engine behind it. Once you have begun to master the energy, techniques become second nature.
Ahh politics of wing chun, something I guess I will never escape. It just depends on how you look at it. My sifu is traditional in the sense that he has us call him sifu, and we have senior and junior students. Seniors will help the juniors so on and so forth. We call each other our kung fu brothers/sisters/uncles etc (sibok, sigung, sihing, etc).
My sifu has the mentality of as long as you keep training martial arts he will be happy for you. He does not want any of us to give it up. My sigung has helped out a few people (who are now famous, for lack of a better word) that have turned on him due to lineage. Yip Man and HFY play a lot into the politics of my lineage. If you change lineage in our view is fine, if you do it and then be spiteful back towards us we look down upon that.
Then again I have met people who are totally untraditional and will not let you call them sifu, and are very very good martial artists and very good teachers. It all comes down to the individual. A guy I know (who I am considering cross training with) teaches 6 elbows system for free. He won’t let you call him sifu either. You just have to show up and give it your best. He is more like a coach I guess than a sifu, and he is one of the best martial artists I have ever come across.
So, as long as you do your change in respect for those you trained with before I do not see a problem with it. At first there may be hard feelings, but I think if you maintain your respect for the person eventually you would be able to meet on common ground.
I can understand your perspective, YY. My experience and observations are quite similar to yours.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo