Hey guys,
I’m not trying to stir anything up here, but has anyone heard of this lineage and can verify its authenticity? Likewise, what’s the general opinion on Sifu James Cama and his school, if anyone knows?
Thanks.
Fut Sau=Buddha Hand
Hello,
There is a student of James Cama who posts on this board named SAM. It is sometimes hard to draw out details of the system. But, I will share my limited knowledge fwiw.
Fut Sau was brought to this country by Henry Leung. James Cama is a student of his as is Santos Barbalace. There seems to be some bad blood between these two the details of which I am unaware of nor care to be. I am basing this on some conversations I have had in the past, it is possible I misconstrued something and am mistaken.
Sifu Cama teaches in Brooklyn, NY and has recently opened a school in Manhattan as well. One of his students has also opened a school in Calafornia and he had another student who used to teach in Delaware.
The system has all three empty hand forms, SNT, CK an BT however there is also some Chi Kung and some stepping patterns which seem to be circular. They have the two main weapons and also train to fight with the Buddhist beads as a flexible weapon.
Any further details should come from a representative of this system as my information is second handed and liable to be incorrect.
If in the NY area you could look up Sifu Cama. Santos Barbalace is also still in NY but may be a bit harder to contact. Although, from all accounts he is extremely highly skilled!! Perhaps worth seeking out 
Here are some links:
http://members.aol.com/banepon/myhomepage/
http://www.geocities.com/nofear365/
http://www.buddhahandwingchun.org/
http://members.aol.com/undefeat25/FatSao.html
Peace,
Dave
Like most of your information Dave!!! (j/k)
Ah, thanks very much Dave. The info was greatly appreciated.
I only ask as I am considering training in this version of Wing Chun. Since everything seems to point towards the authenticity and solidity of this version of wing Chun and no one has come out of the wood work decrying it, I feel comfortable in starting in it.
Coolness and many many thanks.
You always have a choice of learning something because of history or because of quality. Sometimes you’re lucky to find both, sometimes unlucky enough to find neither.
The history of Fut Sao in not verifiable. Henry Leung (Leung Chi-Man) has many students each with very, very different stories of where his art came from (from Shaolin abbott Xu Yun, from Fung Siu-Ching, from Chan Wah-Shun, from Leung Jan’s family, from Leung Chang-Sang (Leung sifu’s uncle), etc. with some saying he has a connection to Yip Man as well through his brother-in-law, Duncan Leung) Each claim their story is direct from Leung sifu and the true one. Since there is no other known source for Fut Sao, including China, it is impossible to cross-reference and figure out.
That means if you want to study Fut Sao just because you think you’ll be getting some older, secret, more super-duper branch of WCK, you may want to rethink it.
On the other hand, based on what I’ve heard, Henry Leung is a very highly skilled martial artist, in WCK, in Fu family internals (Fu Zhensong style Taiji, Bagua, etc.), and perhaps in some Hakka fist as well. Likewise, I have heard good things about Barbalace and Cama sifu.
So, if you appreciate the skill level of the teachers and that is why you want to learn Fut Sao, then you’ll probably be happy.
I have some general info up under http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/systems
And may have an old article lying around (in txt format) somewhere if you’re interested.
Rgds,
RR
<<On the other hand, based on what I’ve heard, Henry Leung is a very highly skilled martial artist, in WCK, in Fu family internals (Fu Zhensong style Taiji, Bagua, etc.), and perhaps in some Hakka fist as well. Likewise, I have heard good things about Barbalace and Cama sifu. >>
Ah, let me clarify.
While I’m sure many of us would love to lay claim to learning some rare system like Eight Drunken Immortals or Butterfly Palms or Super-Secret-Emei-Wu-lin-ass-kicking fu, it’s not something you should base your kung fu on. The likelyhood of getting an “authentic” martial art is rather slim, if you want something that’s verifiable and collectable-- i.e. rare, with a clear cut lineage and a free certificate of authenticity.
My only concern with Fut Sao was that the quality of instruction would be lacking. A style can be effective even if its lineage is doubtful-- just look at every other branch of Wing Chun. Each one claims to be the true distillation of Yip Man’s knowledge, yet each one is remarkably different. This gives me two choices-- I can spend all my time debating linage or I can find a branch of wing chun that works and does what I’m looking for.
So far, opinion seems to suggest it’d be worth my time training in this branch.
It would really really be nice if people would just be simply honest about their lineage. When people make something up it makes everything they do hang under the shadow of possible bs. I would never be comfortable with that.
Fut Sao Wing Chun
Hello RL, I would like to relate some information on Fut Sao Wing Chun and James Cama Sifu. First I would like to thank Sihing 73 and Rene Ritchie for trying to be positive and nuetral. I have a bone to pick though about lineage and speaking from authority. I understand that many have done much research in mainland China and have come up with many conclusions. I have to start off by saying I have utmost respect for all Wing chun lineages but must state that “Hands always tell”. When Henry Leung Sifu appeared in the early 70’s with his alternate version of Wing Chun’s history (by the way Mr. Ritchie this was before you were born) he was not believed and ridiculed by the Yip Man people. Then in 87 James Cama Sifu came out with the history for all to see. Mr. Ritchie and Mr. Chu then authored a book in the 90’s declaring the Yip Man history may be a fairy tale and are telling a very similar story to the one that Henry Leung Sifu has been telling for decades. Yip Man’s history was engraved in stone. What happened? By the way Fut Sao Wing Chun is in mainland China which I researched from a non Wing Chun source (A senior in another style) who saw a Fut Sao closed door class. Most of these current lineages are hearsay. As far as Henry Leung, he has a precious stone handed down from out of Yung Chun Temple with the Abbots names engraved on it. By the way Yip Man was never given the Grandmastership by anyone in his lineage. I believe Chan Wah Su was the last Grand Master. Henry Leung Sifu vowed to his Sifu that he would not divulge this information because these men were religous monks whom deplored violence and would not wish to be associated with it. I speak for myself but if you wish more information you can call: James Cama 718-692-2281 JCama108@aol.com futsaowingchun108@yahoo.com www.buddhapalm.com
Hi Sam,
You raise some interesting points. Please let me preface this by saying that I’ve had the opportunity to converse with several different Fut Sao people, and as you can imagine, I’ve heard some pretty outlandish things (that Fung Siu-Ching created WCK by bringing Xingyi down from Hebei, that Leung Bik is only just 70 years old and gave a seminar in New York City in the late 1990s, that Xu Yun (Gao Jee Fut Sao) knew WCK, etc.) So please understand why I take a lot of this stuff with fairly substantial grains of salt.
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Hands don’t always tell. A very good Southern Mantis master might easily handle an intermediate WCK teacher but it doesn’t mean the Southern Mantis master is a WCK master. Some people with no MA training at all can be amazing, but it doesn’t make them legitimate descendants of an MA lineage. Whether someone is good is a separate question.
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I was, in fact, born in the early 70s 8)
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Non Yip Man lineages have been known in China, of course, since the beginning, and in HK since before Yip Man even arrived (Chu Chong of Pao Fa Lien, among others, were already there). Even in the US, some other lineages were around. Some had alternate histories, some not. There were also some who came up with WCK histories, so it’s not as simple as just who was when and where.
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I’ve seen 2 or 3 versions of the Fut Sao book, including the history in it. It’s actually a pretty well known history, taken/translated from a book published in the 50s or 60s in Guangdong (Othodox Styles: Wing Chun), (it’s the one with the Miu Shun elements). Many WCK people of Leung sifu’s generation had this book and its story is found in many branches (including Sum Nung and Cho Ga). Apart from HK, its probably the best known.
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I’m not sure about Yip Man’s history being engraved in stone. It was simply the most wide-spread outside of China (and even in HK they knew the others).
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Unless you’ve seen it first hand, I’d be leary about believing people see anything other than the more well known branches in China. The distinctions between branches aren’t that clear to all observers, even those expert in other systems (some of the signatures in the Chan Yiu-Min system, for example, look like some of those in Fut Sao, especially the external rotation on Huen Sao before the withdrawl).
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Most of the current lineages aren’t really heresay and can be reliably traced back to the Red Junks. (before that is heresay
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If you’re referring to Abbot Xu Yun (Gao Jee Fut Sao), his life is pretty well documented. It’s highly unlikely he had anything to do with WCK, but was concerned with the transmission of Buddhism (such as seen in his inheritor, Hai Deng). If you’re referring to his uncle, Leung Chan-Sang, I’d be very interested in hearing more. However, it’s probably unlikely that WCK came from any religious sources, as its transmission is pretty clear from the performers to the Foshan merchant classes, unless it stopped by only briefly along the way (someone in Foshan taught a monk who then taught students).
Anyway, more food for thought. Hopefully this and other branches will become more clear as time goes on.
Rgds,
RR
Fut Sao Wing Chun
Hello Mr. Ritchie,
There is much misinformation given out by unscrupulous characters who were in the organization at one time. They tried to link Fut Sao to the popular history currently being uncovered. If you research the venerable Hsu Yun especially Mr. Charles Luk you will find it documented that Hsu Yun did practice and teach Chinese Yoga. There is another well documented story of him flinging a huge boulder at age 80. It is also documented that he taught at both Yun Chun and Kwong Chai Monastery Known for Wing Chun and Jook Lum Mantis. Of course Hsu Yun is known as a Buddhist saint so his martial skills have been surpressed to the outside world. That is why the system is called Fut Sao (Buddha Hand) in homage to the vunerable Hsu Yun. This is why you will not find this lineage in the Red Boat or village Wing Chun. Although Henry Leung Sifu has a connection through his uncle a 6th cousin to Leung Jan.
Hi Sam,
Understood on the conflicting histories, though, once again that’s what everyone seems to say about each other (Ken Fish, for example, claims Leung sifu gave him letters of introduction for China when he visited and that he managed to personally confirm Leung’s story about Fung Siu-Ching - a story which conflicts with all the known students of Fung Siu-Ching).
Xu Yun, while I respect the story, is still very hard for me to believe. I have no problem believing Xu Yun might have known martial arts and/or Qigong, based on his early history before Buddhism. However, Wing Chun Kuen was probably not taught or spread anywhere near where he was (not in Kwangsi, Kiangsi, etc.) There are many far more likely MA he could have learned in his background.
Many systems claim to have a version of WCK not from the Red Junks. However, I still default back to the simple fact that you can’t find WCK (or anything even remotely resembling it) anywhere else. The same way that it would take them actually digging up a Porche beneath the colleseum for me to believe they had high performance cars during the time of Ceaser.
(BTW- This is nothing against Fut Sao, as I said many lineages make these claims, and many students sincerely believe them - for example that Pao Fa Lien is a Northern Internal branch of WCK from Henan Shaolin).
Rgds,
RR
Hi Rene,
Fut Sao is not the Wing Chun which you have researched at least in part as Leung Sifu may have also learned Leung Jan’s version also. The original style was called Gu Yee chuan (Ancient Chivalrous Fist) Fut Sao Wing Chun was coined later in homage to it’s Buddhist and Wing Chun influences. Gu Yee Chuan is a complete internal system which contains the young virgin hei-gung for light skills which Henry Leung learned at age 7 to 14yrs old. I have seen first hand incredible feats done by Henry Leung Sifu. James Cama Sifu has learned these skills and can perform them in his prime. www.buddhapalm.com
Hi Sam,
Thanks, I’m familiar with the story about Koo Yee Kuen but never heard it referred to as distinct from the Wing Chun before. Could you elaborate a little on what parts of Fut Sao are Koo Yee and what are Wing Chun Kuen? That sounds like a very interesting explination for the system’s roots.
The name Koo Yee, I think, was popular among the pulp fiction writers (the same kind who wrote the WCK history I referred to before) for their heroic epics (because they sometimes didn’t know what the real people practiced and sometimes made up additional characters, so Ancient Righteous Fist was a name that fit well with the romance of the times). Is that the only name used for this other system? Is it also distinct from Leung sifu’s Fu family internals? (Leung Yee/Liang Yi).
Rgds,
RR
Gu Yee Chuan
Historians say that history is best told in folk tales because documented history is always slanted to whomever is in power at the time. The internal forms of the system and inch power Dim Mak strikes are unique. Qi issuing and transferance techniques also. Soft,loose hands. James Cama Sifu would know more. You should speak with him.
Hi Sam,
At one end you have bullies who force their “history” on others, on the other end, crackpots who manufacture “history”, and somewhere in the middle, with hard work and patience, you can usual find a pretty good thread of actual history.
Thanks much for the information. I’ve spoken with Cama sifu, and several of his classmates, in the past and perhaps will have the chance to do so again.
Rgds,
RR
Your welcome. Anytime we can talk and share and agree to disagree is good. All roads eventually lead to the same enlightenment. Hopefully we can help each other along the way.
Rene and Sam
Thanks for the information from both of you. I’m still a bit of a newbie here, so would you both mind me asking you some questions? (Feel free to answer here or in a private message, if you want)
Sam- You have actually trained with Cama sifu, right? If so, how is his kung fu? Do you enjoy the training and the style? How internal is Fut Sao? Do the internal qualities extend through the strikes and blocks of the system or are they merely in the footwork? (I hear the system is similar to Bagua in that regard.) Is there Qi-gong like in Tai Chi Chuan, Baguazhang, et all., or is the style more “scientific” (for lack of a better term) like the Yip Man variants? Finally, do you think that fut sao is “real”, as in a sound method of fighting?
Rene- Where to begin… Okay, first question, what are the Red Junks and how do they relate to the varieties of Wing Chun? Do other non-Yip Man lineages have similar questions regarding their linages? (Please note that I’m not trying to invalidate Fut Sao, just curious, no offence to anyone else) You sound extremely knowledgable regarding the history of Wing Chun Kuen. Would you mind giving a clueless novice (like me) a brief run-down of Wing Chun history or point me in a direction where I can learn more?
Many thanks to both of you.
Ciao.
quote:
“By the way Yip Man was never given the Grandmastership by anyone in his lineage. I believe Chan Wah Su was the last Grand Master.”
strong words
Now who could have really given Yip Man that title anyway? I was told by my SiFu that Yip Man never wanted to be called a Grandmaster, but in my opinion - who could’ve deserved it more than him? He did so much for Wing Chun.
Advice - in the future you should be careful whenever you speak of Yip Man. You might p!ss some people off.
Originally posted by mun hung
Advice - in the future you should be careful whenever you speak of Yip Man. You might p!ss some people off.
If comments about Ip Man, someone that few have met, offend people, those people have issues.
The truth is in the hands, regardless of lineage. So what is so offensive? If you don’t lack in your hands, there’s nothing to be offended by.
It is those who lack in skill, that rely on their lineage to back them up.
Economy of energy…
Thank you whippinghand, you stated my point most eloquently. Mun Hung I ment no offense and as I originally stated have a great respect for all Wing Chun lineages. My point is that some lineages use their line like a pedigree and look down on everyone else. I like whippinghand fully agree that hands always tell.