Question for those who have studied many different versions of Wing Chun.

Wing chun is Chinese in origin. So if the sifu is from HK or Macao
it is natural to find a middle way of expressing respect in the bridging of cultures..

But China has different layers of traditions and demographic distinctions and personalty variables. Shows in the varying chemistries of wc families.

I am Indian in origin- and respect for all my teachers in any subject comes to me naturally. So I add bits and pieces of my worlds and my late wife(Creek Indian) worlds into the current not always symmetrical mosaic.Respect is not servility and includes self respect.

So- details in relationships can vary. Each to his own.

I am in the Augustine Fong lineage and respect him and sigung Ho Kam Ming…but I am not in the least bit discouraged from going
to visit other schools or interacting with them or seeing what goes on in the wing chun world.Or tasting other styles. And- I dont speak for any one but myself.

I have not had the need to switch from one sifu to another-learned from different elder brothers and one elder sister within the same family..

If I were the original poster- I would talk with the sifu and them make up your own mind.

Gangsterfist, do you mean that some one is teaching elbows as a separate system?

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Gangsterfist, do you mean that some one is teaching elbows as a separate system?

Nope, its a complete system called tai hui (pronounced tie hoy). Its based of 6 elbow postures. I have not formally trained in the system but my sifu is one of the students of a local man who teaches it. The history of it, is there is no lineage because it was a closed door art only taught to the emporer’s royal guard. It only recently (like 150 years go) became taught publically. A travelling doctor cured some of the emporer’s guard who were very sick and they had no way to pay him. The doctor asked to learn their kung fu instead, and they taught him it. So it also called 6 elbows. There is an external side and internal side, with external and internal forms. I do not know much about it besides that. From what I have been told it is very similar to wing chun in several aspects. When I start training in it, I could possibly explain more about it.

Here is a link to a breif history of it, It has had several names 6 elbows kung fu, secret fist, and tai hui.

http://www.taihui.com/history.html#taihui

Originally posted by kj
I can understand your perspective, YY. My experience and observations are quite similar to yours.

sure there are higher mountains above mountains… :wink:

Always seek the truth
Always speak the truth
Always be open to the truth.

In late 1982 William Cheung first went public with the whole Traditional Wing Chun thing…the “missing footwork”…the central-line principle (in addition to the centerline), the blindside strategy, etc…and I was so enthralled with his magazine articles and the photos that I started working with his stuff - sometimes right even in Moy Yat’s classes (of which I was one of about three people who was doing most of the teaching)…Moy Yat eventually saw this and hit the roof !!! On thing led to another…he called me into his office one day - we had a big argument about a number of things (with Cheung’s stuff being at the top of the list)…I walked out and never went back…What was most amazing was that the date was May 16th, 1983.

I became a student of William Cheung in August, 1983.

Now this is an extreme example - but looking back I can definitely see why Moy Yat would be upset - even if I hadn’t done any of Cheung’s stuff in the school.

Interesting. My experience with Sifu could not have been more different than yours.

Almost from the start, he was encouraging me to visit and get to know other teachers, and, if I found something which fit me better, he would help me, if he could, become a student there.

I also know that as early as 1965 when he was teaching in Hong Kong, Moy Yat had written letters of introduction for some so that his student might have a better chance to be accepted into the other Sifu’s family - including to some letters to his own SiHings.

I just wanted to relay my experience with Moy Yat as being quite different than Victor’s. That’s hardly surprising, because he and I are different people. This post is not meant as a rebuttal, though I will admit I originally was not going to post on this subject. Sorry. I mean no disrespect to my SiHing, Victor. He spent eight years with Moy Yat and is as qualified (or not) as anyone else, myself included, to discuss him. I’ve also had my share of arguments with Sifu. It’s just a part of the nature of any relationship.

For what it’s worth, I have seen Sifu do a lot to discourage another one of my SiHiings in a similar fashion as Victor describes. Yet, Sifu was telling me the opposite. He wasn’t duplicitous about it; he would do this directly front of both of us.

Of course, everyone’s experience is different. And while the Moy Yat I knew in the 1990s was different from the Moy Yat Victor knew in the late 1970s, Moy Yat was 37 years old already when Victor met him. Sifu’s character was pretty much set. Those who knew him long before Victor pretty much confirmed to me that my observations regarding Moy Yat were not all that tremendously out of line with the observations of many other people, including many observations as retold by my SiHing, Victor.

Ernie,

… because of this openess i will stay and help him with all that i can like i would with any friend , no strings attached …

See? You do know exactly what it takes to be a Disciple in the correct and traditional understanding of the way, shape and form to do it. :smiley:

‘Disciple’ is such a loaded word in this world and ‘Sifu’ is such a loaded word in the world of Martial Arts. From my perspective, that’s probably why I think you would hate it with a passion to be referred to as such. I can’t say I blame you at all. :slight_smile:

Tom Kagan:

Your post was very revealing..I have also seen Sifu Moy do the same thing…if he liked you and wanted you to stay…he would definitely discourage any thought or talk of leaving for another school…if he didn’t like or trust you…he might actually encourage you to check out something or someone else.

Perhaps you are right and Sifu did not like me. It never occurred to me to ask him whether he did or not.

Perhaps you are right and Sifu did not trust me. I never asked whether he did or not. But if he did not, why did he want me to take the chops to my house until I convinced him he was being silly?

Does it surprise you that I do not agree with your interpretation as to why Sifu would act as we both observed? :slight_smile:

I spoke at his funeral. You were discussing Kung Fu with Julian and asking him to throw a punch at you.

We’re different people, SiHing. I also know that Sifu did, in fact, like you and cared about you. But, I don’t think that was the defining factor in the difference between our relationships with our Sifu.

Now Tom…I have recently asked Miguel Hernandez (several months ago) if I ever met you - because I didn’t recall knowing you - but have had some conversations on this forum with you fom time to time…Miguel said that I probably didn’t; because, like Miguel, you came to Moy Yat’s school after I left.

So I don’t even know what you look like…and if you say you were there, and that you spoke in eulogy - I believe you.

But what I do remember very clearly was sitting in the back and talking to John Cheng (Moy 4) quite a bit…and I do remember Julian (along with some other folks) - coming over to say hello.

But at no time did I ever ask Julian to throw a punch at me.

That’s not only absurd - it’s insulting.

You obviously have some sort of axe to grind (for whatever reason)…perhaps what I told you of some of Sifu Moy’s methods of dealing with people bothers you?

Bother you or not…is it the truth?

Did he do things like that?

Now I can’t claim to know what his behavior was like after May, 1983 - maybe he changed somewhat as he got older (like so many people do)…maybe he didn’t.

But if you don’t believe what I told you then ask someone else who was there during the years 1975-1983 (John, Mickey, Lester, Julian, Henry, etc.)

I didn’t happen very often - but I did see him on occasion try to discourage certain individuals by suggesting that they try something or someone else - and for the reasons I gave.

If he spoke to you like that (years after I left)…but did like and trust you (as your story about the chops suggests) - then maybe he changed somewhat after I left.

Who knows?

Thanks, guys. I was really thinking about studying under two sifus at the same time, rather than leaving one for another.

Ultimatewingchun,

We have not met.

I have no axe to grind with you. As for what transpired at the funeral, he remembers differently. Whether you find what he said as insulting, that’s between you and him, though I suppose there is a chance I misunderstood him. (If that is the case, then I apologize because it was not my intent at all in relaying an observation.)

As for talking to the others, I have. Without pointing fingers or getting anyone else into this quagmire (and regardless of any personal interpretations which I have tried to minimize and just make observations), without even knowing you personally, I have “stuck-up” for you in the past with the simple reminder that you came to pay your last respects. (To me, that one act alone is proof you are SiHing.)

In regards to your argument as to why Moy Yat acted as he did, I want to point out that you have one SiHing and one SiDai, whom you trained with regularly during that era, who SiFu did not particularly like personally. Yet, he wasn’t trying to “send them away” like you describe.

I don’t deny at all he did what he did as you say. As I mentioned, I’ve seen it myself. He didn’t change in that respect as he got older. But I also know he did the exact same thing but in reverse to people in the situation we are discussing. It is simply not possible to correctly reconcile this fact with your interpretation of whether he liked a student or not as being the deciding factor in how Moy Yat behaved towards a student.

Tom:

First of all - I’m sure if Julian told you that - then he was just kidding around with you. Julian was always quick with a joke and a smile.

And as regards Sifu Moy telling you to investigate other schools/instructors if you thought that might help you - without that meaning that he didn’t like/trust you…

then maybe something did change within his mind as years went by…But when I was there he was always VERY concerned about growing his kung fu family - and rightly so. Remember…he had just come from Hong Kong only a year-and-a-half before I met him in May, 1975 - and was starting from scratch.

Having students leave to go train somewhere else was not something he welcomed in those days - believe me. Unless, as I said - it was someone who he considered to be something of a problem.

By the time you had those kinds of conversations with him - it’s quite possible he was genuinely giving you encouragement to check things out on your own - precisely becasue he liked you - and therefore wanted to help you come to your own conclusions…while at the same time telling others the same thing because he DID want them to leave (ie.- he didn’t like/trust them).

Sifu Moy never lacked for subtlety.

I’m sure you know that.

First of all - I’m sure if Julian told you that - then he was just kidding around with you. Julian was always quick with a joke and a smile.

How true. But if he did say it as a joke, then it was my personal favorite kind of joke: No one at the table got it except for him, and he kept a straight face. :smiley:

It all happened later the same day of the funeral. When another person at the table - a SiHing of your training era and the person Julian addressed his comment - and one of the guys Sifu didn’t like :slight_smile: - had the same reaction you did in your post by pointing out it was insulting to do that, that was the first time I expressed my point about you coming to pay your respects and the last time I ever needed to within the Moy family (but it’s not as if you, as a subject, come up all that often :stuck_out_tongue: :slight_smile: ).

The other two times were: once to two former students of yours I met when they said you wasted a lot of time making unnecessary comparisons to Moy Yat (they were with you for maybe two years, tops), and once when someone posted a question on-line in a defunct forum soliciting opinions about you of which there was not a single response remotely favorable, save mine.

There is no question Moy Yat ‘loosened up’ as the years went by and relaxed a bit - he had already managed to “raise” several students and was reasonably satisfied with the result (regardless of whether they stayed). But, he was never personally happy about any of his students leaving the nest. (Relieved? Yes, sometimes. Happy? No.) But, to him as a SiFu, that’s the job he signed on for and already spent ten years in Hong Kong working at.

While I’m far from an expert on Moy Yat, perhaps because he knew I had taken care of quite a few foster children, SiFu and I actually had many conversations on this very subject addressing his entire teaching career.

Believe me, when the only fair and proper thing to do is treat each one as “your own” - and you don’t know if it’s going to be for six hours or six years or more - and you don’t know if they are one day old or fifteen years old until they are put right in front of you (chronological or training age) - or whether they are the the ones where you cannot stand them and long for the hour to give them back to someone, anyone - you don’t want to see them go. You can be happy for them when it comes (especially if it’s the right time), but you don’t have to like it. :smiley: Sometimes it’s easier to deal with than at other times.

Regardless, if that’s the way one felt it needed to be done (as I do for my foster kids and he did for “his”), without the emotional commitment from the start, it wouldn’t work at all.

And, like his subtlety, Moy Yat never lacked for emotion, either. :wink:

re studing diffrent versions of wing chun

hi guys this subject is a bit close, to home here but , here goes nothing, i was with a chinese australian , with whose name i cannot seem to rememeber after being with him 16 years , dave peterson was in the same kwoon and it was he whom taught me bong sau and sidekick, this sifu when i lok back at it while he tuaght us strong basic"S he left a lot out forward pressure in chi sau bill jee had to many elbows but the sifu cliamed he was a student and repersentative of wong shun leurng when sifu told me ; how much training he had i fell over backwoods. i trained at grandmaster cheungs adacdermy for least than six mouths than met sifu foggie with whom had stuided in hk with sifu stephan chan and i trained with him a little bit as well when he came to australia , then i had the great fortune to meet quite by accident my close friend , and like a brother to me and my sifu randy williams sifu wiliams tuaght me to apprecaticate my past sifu"S and tuaght me on a one to one level in which i had not expereinced before . it is good to lok beyond your own school yip man gave eveyone different version
of wing chun for many varied reasons . peace russellsherry

russellsherry:

You really brought back some memories for me with your post - as well as provoking some ideas that might explain perhaps more than a few mysteries (controversies?).

And apropos to much of the previous discussion on this thread - those memories (and the ideas) have to do with my first Wing Chun sifu…Moy Yat.

He ALWAYS tried to emulate Yip Man’s teaching methods and ways of looking at things concerning Wing Chun.

One of the complaints I had with him (and occasional arguments) was that I wanted to experience a more combat-oriented approach to the training in his school…(I wanted to see and do more physical conditioning during classtime…more actual contact sparring with protective equipment…more street self-defense training, etc.)

You just reminded me of something he once said. Something to the effect that he COULD train some people like that - if fights or tournament competitions were his goal…and had actually done so upon occasion with one or two of his former Hong Kong students. He explained how he would organize and approach that kind of total combat oriented training - the regiment he would put someone through, etc.

But now…here in America - he said that he wanted to totally concentrate on teaching his students the entire Wing Chun system as he knew it…so that they could go on to open schools of their own and help spread the art throughout the world. He wanted to train…first and foremost - Wing Chun Instructors.

Which is exactly what he did.

So when you said that “Yip Man gave everyone different versions of Wing Chun for many varied reasons”…

A BELL WENT OFF IN MY HEAD. In a sense, that was what Moy Yat was telling me…and he prided himself on ALWAYS trying to follow the teaching methods of his sifu, Yip Man.

Yip Man knew who his best fighters were - he knew who were better at things like organization (and Moy Yat prided himself as being one of Yip Man’s best at this - and I believe him)…Yip Man knew who excelled at teaching - at getting necessary practical school affairs taken care of (birthday banguets , Chinese New Year celebrations) - who was better at this…at that.

Moy Yat would mention things like this all the time.

MUCH FOOD FOR THOUGHT AS REGARDS SOME NOW-LONGSTANDING CONTROVERSIES WITHIN THE WING CHUN WORLD.

Thank you for your post.

Ultimatewingchun,

So when you said that “Yip Man gave everyone different versions of Wing Chun for many varied reasons”…

A BELL WENT OFF IN MY HEAD. In a sense, that was what Moy Yat was telling me…and he prided himself on ALWAYS trying to follow the teaching methods of his sifu, Yip Man.

I agree.

In my opinion, one of the more cagey things Yip Man did was this.

If a teacher teaches one thing to student A, another thing to student B, and still another to student C, if each of those students wanted to really learn everything, it required them to work together or be stuck in mediocrity..

So, if you were say, “King of the Kwan”, that didn’t necessarily mean you were the best at it or knew everything about it. It meant that if another student wanted to properly work on the Kwan , he/she had to develop a relationship with you. (And, in my humble opinion, the most important job of the King was to make sure to point a student toward the correct other students with which to practice.)

I’ll never forget the conversation I had with SiFu in the hospital the night of his second stroke. In my typical fashion, it was well after visiting hours were over and everyone else had gone home, save one person I met in the lobby. I was sitting in his room for about 10 minutes when he woke up and saw me):

Me: “Rough day?”

SiFu: “Terrible. … … … Terrible. Terrible.”

(a one minute silence)

SiFu: “Listen, anything happen to me, you go to [SiHing A], you go to [SiHing B], you go to [SiHing C] …” (He listed 5 before I interrupted.)

Me: “You don’t have to worry about that right now.”

SiFu: “They take care of you training.”

(a fifteen second pause)

Me (in mock indignance): “What makes you think I’m not doing that already?”

Half of SiFu’s face lit up and he smiled on one side - the other side being paralyzed - and he fell back to sleep.

Tom:

Beautiful story…you brought a tear to my eye.

-Victor

re different versions of wing chun

hi sifu victor and tom do you know the one thing that gets on my nerves in wing chun is we olny should have one sifu in wingchun , remember yip man had 2 sifu athough , he addressed leung bik as sisok , but eveyone had a diffrent apporch to wing chun iit does not matter about tan sau being at what angle it matters how you make tan sau or your wing chun work for yourself, do you know it was said in a letter or artical that i read in the old real kung fu hk mags that leung shern had some of grandmaster cheung style in his wing chun this just shows how sigung yip tuaght and while i see many things the same as my wing chun to others , some would say the way, ia m doing it is wrong but their, not taking into my disabilatey and how i worked around it peace russell sherry

Re: re different versions of wing chun

Hi Russell,

Originally posted by russellsherry
do you know it was said in a letter or artical that i read in the old real kung fu hk mags that leung shern had some of grandmaster cheung style in his wing chun this just shows how sigung yip tuaght

I’m not sure what the implication is here or in the referenced article.

William Cheung was about 13 years old when he began learning from Yip Man. During the time that Leung Sheung lived and studied with Yip Man, William Cheung would have been a child.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo