I realize that a big difference between TWC and some of the other types of Wing Chun is the footwork. I am curious as to when this type of footwork was incorporated, at least according to the written or oral record. Any ideas?
Did Leung Jan come up with the footwork of TWC and then pass it on to his oldest son Leung Bik who then passed it on to Yip Man? Or does it predate Leung Jan?
Also, do the Wing Chun practioners of mainland China also use this type of footwork? In other words, was TWC footwork taught to any of Leung Jan’s other disciples besides his oldest son (who presumably was the guy who Leung Jan wanted to be his heir)?
Note:
I’m genuinely interested in learning more about this topic. I’m well aware of the political bs that’s prevalent in the Wing Chun world today, so I’m hoping that my inquiries don’t spark a heated debate.
We’ve already had this heated debate numerous times…go back and check some of the threads - especially over the last year or so. Check the THREE POINTS ABOUT TWC thread - and the UNDERSTANDING TWC thread…amoungst others.
But listen - the “history” aspect of it eventually becomes a nasty and frustrating deadend street - if you follow that path.
A better line of investigation, IMO, is simply to learn all you can about the TWC footwork and then compare and contrast it with other wing chun footwork.
I could spent an hour telling you why it’s the best wing chun footwork I’ve ever seen (and I’ve seen alot)…and someone else could tell you otherwise.
Let Traditional Wing Chun become it’s own ambassador.
FSY-Trolling some? There is plenty of footwork in many lines of “modified wing chun”. We have had lots of debates on all this. Several wc folks also trace their influences to Leung Bik but in a different way than the TWC story.
These things really dont get resolved on the net.
Same old same old.
Cans of worms.
Actually, I had searched and read some of the older threads before asking my questions about the history of the TWC footwork. Most of the threads I found dealt with technical aspects, whereas I am interested more in when the footwork started (history). I feel that the technical aspects are things that one could acquire over time in class, while some of the more academic or historical aspects of the art would be perfect topics for the internet kwoon.
More specifically, I was wondering if the TWC footwork is older than Leung Jan, then was it passed down only to him from his uncle? Has a modified system which was taught to most students (except the heir of the system) always existed?
I’m aware (due to reading older threads and from other sources) that some people think that GM Cheung made up the footwork, and I realize the potential for some guys to get bent out of shape by reading something that is contrary to what they’ve learned. However, I was addressing the questions strictly to TWC practioners or guys who have historical knowledge of the beginnings of the footwork and its dissemination. I would hope that anyone with no information about the footwork could just sit back and read or just skip the thread altogether, rather than particpate in another ‘my style is better than yours’ debate.
I am not trying to “resolve” anything. I think that the intentions of a troll are to stir up trouble and to resolve (have the last word, at least in their mind) a particular issue. I am STRICTLY (and sincerely) trying to trace the beginnings of the TWC footwork because this is interesting to me, and for no other reasons.
I feel that the internet is a powerful tool that allows individuals from all over the globe to share information about a particular subject. It would be a shame if we, as martial artists, couldn’t discuss topics like this one without resorting to flaming and namecalling. People in other disciplines, such as medicine, are able to do it all the time.
I thank you in advance for any information you take the time to share. However, if it turns out that this issue is just too much of a “can of worms” then I’ll humbly apologize for starting it and seek my answers elsewhere. Peace.
My understanding of this version of history is that pre-Leung Jan WC had the “traditional” footwork all the way back to Yim wing Chun/Ng Mui; Leung Jan taught the “modified” version to Chan Wa Soon and kept the good stuff for his sons, including Leung Bik.
Every version of WC history I’ve ever seen is self-serving and political, this is unlikely to be different.
When I examine Wing Chun and look for quality, I hold it to its main centeral theory which is the science of ecomony of motion/energy that simultaneously covers and attacks in the shortest distance possible. If it doesnt conform to this theory, than it doesnt hold true to its name.
From what I see TWC footwork is more dynamic than western boxing and even wing chun as known by many Yip Man older students. Yet in my opinion doesnt obey the central theory of wing chun gung fu. Most of the TWC’s fancy foot work is done from a side neutral stance which I dont see as practical stance in fighting especially in MMA fighting. The foot work of wing chun is similar to western boxing, but different. I have heard arguments that wing chun’s foot work is lacking, but would you say the same for western boxing or other striking arts? The more fancy you get the more energy and motion is wasted.
As to your historical questions about TWC’s footwork, it all conjecture and seconded stories which we can not abolsutely without a doubt confirm. All we have is indirect evidence and yet the possiblity of truth I am afraid will never been certain. What matter however is can people work their skills under real pressure.
Thanks for the info. It 's looking more and more like Leung Jan Sifu was one of the first to apparently teach two versions. I wonder if this was also common practice among other styles, such as Hung-Ga, in those days or if Leung Jan came up with the idea on his own.
I didn’t even know that Leung Jan Sifu had a great grandson who is teaching Wing Chun. This raises more interesting questions:
Did he learn from Leung Bik? Is he teaching publically or privately? In Hong Kong? Are there any old documents that record some of Wing Chun’s history which were passed down from father to son? I’d like to investigate this further; not to prove or disprove anthing–simply to satisfy my own curiosity.
I’d love to get over to the mainland (China) to see some of the Wing Chun guys there. Even though Leung Ting’s lineage isn’t the one I’m learning, I purchased his book “The Roots of Wing Chun.” It has some fascinating pictures of where Leung Jan used to practice herbal medicine, as well as some photographs of different masters performing some of the forms.
It 's looking more and more like Leung Jan Sifu was one of the first to apparently teach two versions. I wonder if this was also common practice among other styles, such as Hung-Ga, in those days or if Leung Jan came up with the idea on his own.
I would have to agree & disagree with your conclusion from the replies. The only two versions that can be proven is Leung Jan’s Futshan pupils decendants and his Koo Lo pupils decendants WC of which both are similar as he (Leung Jan sifu) stated this to be the case. When it comes to this topic you are best to avoid the historical/marketing stuff and see which art fits you best! They all have something to offer!
The question seems to be not so much whether L Jan taught two different versions of WC but whether he in fact taught three.
After all there is the WC he taught Chan wa sun- i.e. yip man WC (or what most of Yip mans students practice- despite differences in execution, the number and sequence of the hand forms are pretty much the same-except where the students themselves have changed them) and there is the WC he taught in koloo (sp?) village when he retired- this has not three hand forms but one (look for the recent thread entitled Dai Nim Tao for more info). Then there is William cheungs Wing chun which may or may not be another version from Leung Jan. What is true, as has been pointed out many times, is that parallel but seperate lines of WC that trace their roots back to Leung Jans teacher wong wah bo e.g. the YKS line, have more in common with Chan Wa Sun WC than Wlliam Cheungs Wing Chun. This means (leaving out the possibility that Wong wah bo taught more than one version of WC) that either Leung Jan made up TWC, or Leung Bik did (assuming of course that he existed, and that he did WC and that he taught Yip man), or Yip Man did or William Cheung did.
That said the recent emergence of HFY wing chun and some of the heavy similarities with TWC raises a number of questions e.g. did William cheung learn HFY, if so was it from Yip man or someone else etc.
On a personal note I once saw a video of a secret WC conference in China in which many different lines got up and showed their forms. All I will say is that there were massive differences (relatively speaking its all WC after all) between how they did things and how the HK students do things.
FooFighter,
There is no fancy footwork in TWC. Just live foot work. I studied and fought duinr my 13 years in other Yip Man WC school. I can say without a doubt that the TWC wroks better, ‘for me’ in dealing with fighters outside of WC especially boxers which usually give WC people a hard time.
It seems that tracing the origin of certain concepts is a difficult thing to do in the Chinese martial arts. I guess that part of this is due to the lack of readily available tangible evidence from the good ol’ days, such as books and other documents. That’s a shame for guys who like the philosophical/historical elements of a particular system as much as the technical aspects.
Reading that Leung Jan only taught one form (Dai Nim Tao) in the village he retired in was interesting–thanks Nick! Now, in addition to the issue of footwork, I’m curious as to when in history Wing Chun “officially” obtained three different forms. Does anyone know of any record showing that the SNT, CK, and BJ forms all existed before Leung Jan? I wonder if there is anything tracing the forms all the way back to Ng Mui and/or Shaolin.
P.S. Foo Fighter and Others: With all due respect, I wasn’t asking about the efficiency of TWC footwork. The purpose of this thread is NOT to convince anyone of anything. Nothing. I am simply trying to take advantage of the wealth of information concerning historical evidence/documents that may or may not be out there. I really DON’T want this thread to degenerate into the typical ‘oneupsmanship’ that is all too common in our little world. Please, Please, PLEASE understand that subjective comments might rub others the wrong way to the point where they feel that they have to respond.
I’d much rather have factual information (or no information at all) instead of opinions which may be misconstrued by others. Thanks.
I am qualified to teach the version or versions of WC that most, not all, do. I choose not to. I do what I feel works best across the board. That being said, I’m not simply a WC man, I’m a martial artist. I use what works regardless of origin. If TWC didn’t work for me I wouldn’t have stayed in it for 21 years. The bottom line is use what works for you personally without belittling other stylists.
It seems that tracing the origin of certain concepts is a difficult thing to do in the Chinese martial arts.
Yes and no. It all depends on how many sources you can pull from and find the most common versus the less common. Now a days we Wing Chun junkies have many sources so its a lot easier than the pre-video/internet days.
I guess that part of this is due to the lack of readily available tangible evidence from the good ol’ days, such as books and other documents.
True but now a days this is not the case or its not as difficult.
That’s a shame for guys who like the philosophical/historical elements of a particular system as much as the technical aspects.
True but keep in mind we have loads of info. to read and cross reference today. God bless the net!
I’d much rather have factual information (or no information at all) instead of opinions which may be misconstrued by others.
Thats the key! Show the known/traceable facts and stylistic info. from numerous known/traceable lineages back to the Red Boat and thats a good place to start!
Please keep in mind that all arts have their good and bad regardless of stories/marketing. It does no good to have something original or old if it is useless. Find a good teacher and feel how each art is applied/fits and cultivates your body.
BTW: The one form Leung Jan taught in Koo Lo was not a form at all! Check out the Dai Nim Tau thread that was around not long ago! That should help you with that info..
I’ve seen a reference to these boats in a bunch of sources concerning Wing Chun. It seems from what I’ve read so far that very little in the form of a written record of Wing Chun exists from the time of the Red Boats. That’s too bad.
The “Dai Nim Tao” thread was interesting. Thanks for pointing it out. From what I’ve gathered so far, it appears that in Wing Chun, just like Hung-Ga, there are three major lineages: Two big branches and a village branch. Does the Village system of Wing Chun also incorporate some of the footwork found in TWC? Do practioners use the wooden dummy? I’ll be getting over to China sometime next year; it looks like Fatshan is one of the places I’d like to visit. Is the village (Koo Lo ?) nearby?
Please pardon my semantics which may lead to confusion. My english isnt that good. Out of all the martial arts I have read and studied and practiced: Jeet Kune Do, Western boxing, Flippino, Wing Chun Gung Fu, TWC is by far fancy in its footwork when you compare the foot work of other styles.
“Just live foot work”? The Wing Chun I have seen and practiced by Duncan Leung and Alan Lee is by far impressive and dynamic, yet simple. I have noticed you have studied with Duncan Leung and I dont know if you have witnessed his footwork, but surely his application and footwork is no better or worst than TWC?
Under the central theory that WC is “the science of economy of motion that simultaneously covers and attacks in the short path possible”, I have to say that in my opinion that TWC doesnt obey this centeral theory however it has worked for others such as yourself.
I have met Duncan Leung and Alan Lee’s students and trust me their footwork and application work in dealing with fighters outside of WC especially boxers which usually give “some” TWC people a hard time.
I do not doubt in my heart that there are authentic versions of Wing Chun out there with extra stuff such as footwork. My mind is open to that possiblity and there is indirect evidence showing this to be the case. However, I personally believe that William Cheung learned a MainLand version of Wing Chun by someone instead his account that the Old Man taught him the real deal while cheating others?
Redmond, I have too much respect for others to put anyone down and I hope you understand I aint knocking down TWC’s footwork, but stating my opinion which is different from some here.
Foo, having trained in both I beg to differ. There is NOTHING fancy about our foortwork. Until you’ve understood the application of it you’ll probably continue to believe what you believe. With regards to what Yip Man taught or didn’t teach Wm. Cheung when they lived under the same roof for over 3 years we’ll never really know. Will we?
