Two man forms are cool for demos.
They can also help conditioning a bit since you are moving around, and if they have forearm strikes/blocks or that type of thing in them.
They don’t really teach anything else. Nothing is realistic when you know what your opponent is about to do. Plus, most of them use flashy moves that don’t work on resisting opponents anyway.
Basic crazy monkey drills with 100x better at developing awareness in new students.
Two man forms look cool, though.
Both solo form and 2 men form are for teaching and learning only. It’s not for training. For training, you need to drill individual move over and over.
In this longfist qinna dui da form, there are a lot of useful information recorded in this form. It’s like a book, 1000 years from today, when you open this book, you can still find some useful information from it.
Chinese Army
The Chinese Nationalist Army used a 24 movement form called chu ji quan ‘basic fist’ to teach the soldiers attack and defense.
The form consists of 12 attack and 12 counter attacks.
The form can be performed empty hand or with bayonet and rifle.
In America it is also known as ‘24 beat’ under the Tian Shan Pai lineage of Wang Juezhen.
Pictures of the army in training can be seen in this article Kung Fu Fit For an Army
Two person weapon routines have been taught at least as far back as the Ming Dynasty and are described in Shaolin Gunfa Chan Zong of the late Ming.
The effectiveness of empty hand two person sets is limited, but for weapons it is a good way to introduce the student to the method of attack and counter-attack.
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1186129]The effectiveness of empty hand two person sets is limited, but for weapons it is a good way to introduce the student to the method of attack and counter-attack.[/QUOTE]
People in the modern day may not know the goal for TCMA training is not “open hand fight” but to “be able to use a ‘cold’ weapon effectively”.
This is one of my favor jokes.
These 2 guys have different definitions about “fight”.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1186128]Both solo form and 2 men form are for teaching and learning only. It’s not for training. For training, you need to drill individual move over and over.
In this longfist qinna dui da form, there are a lot of useful information recorded in this form. It’s like a book, 1000 years from today, when you open this book, you can still find some useful information from it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg[/QUOTE]
Teaching and learning what? Techniques you won’t actually use against a resisting opponent?
[QUOTE=IronFist;1186146]Teaching and learning what? Techniques you won’t actually use against a resisting opponent?[/QUOTE]
What’s your definition of “resisting opponent”? The word “resisting” can mean 2 different things.
If you use me to help you to develop your striking skill, and I just run away from you. If I can run faster than you, there is no way that you can land any punch on me. What kind of striking skill can you develop by using me as your training partner?
If you use me as your training partner to develop your “hip throw”. The moment that you touch me, the moment that I sink myself to the ground (maximum resistence). Will you be able to use me to develop your “hip throw”?
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1186129]
The effectiveness of empty hand two person sets is limited, but for weapons it is a good way to introduce the student to the method of attack and counter-attack.[/QUOTE]
ahhh…I gotta disagree here. Two person weapon sets teach attacks to the weapons. “clack”-“clack”-“clack”-“clack”
Real weapon vs weapon should never be this way.
The saying is,“When using the gwun, (pole) never make two sounds.”
-You strike the weapon, stick/slide to the hand,
or You strike the hand that holds the weapon, then the body,
or you simply go directly to the body.
two man forms come from extinct styles that trained only two man forms and no solo, it was thought to be a little better than doing solo forms. when chinese kung fu focused on performance in the 1800s two man forms became less popular.
for example ming dynaty army’s yu family stick was a two man system, but is preserved as today’s shalin five tiger stick, a solo form.
erlang quan “two man boxing” was a two man system but today is just a long fist system with solo forms.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1186136]People in the modern day may not know the goal for TCMA training is not “open hand fight” but to “be able to use a ‘cold’ weapon effectively”.
This is one of my favor jokes.
These 2 guys have different definitions about “fight”.[/QUOTE]
when a bjj guy challenged me i knew it would end up a ground fight and i would lose since he outclass me there, so i decided to choose swords. We ended up not fighting. He tried to chump my stand up with ground so i chumped his ground with steel. This is why i always carry a knife.
Two man forms also help with the adrenaline dump problem, especially in beginners of course. Done enough, two man forms also help moves become second nature, or simply natural, if you will. Conditioning is also important for those beginners who have never been hit. Two man forms teach structure and timing.
It is good to do them with pads and that and actually full on hit. With pads and contact, people can see how the moves inside the two man forms work.
I guess in the end of it all they are catalogues kind of like single man forms are. Same as forms, they are not meant to express how a whole fight will occur.
[QUOTE=TAO YIN;1186170]Two man forms also help with the adrenaline dump problem, especially in beginners of course. Done enough, two man forms also help moves become second nature, or simply natural, if you will. Conditioning is also important for those beginners who have never been hit. Two man forms teach structure and timing.
It is good to do them with pads and that and actually full on hit. With pads and contact, people can see how the moves inside the two man forms work.
I guess in the end of it all they are catalogues kind of like single man forms are. Same as forms, they are not meant to express how a whole fight will occur.[/QUOTE]
yep you can also do what i like to call open partner forms. For instance you have a form you do. Have 3 or 4 people attack you in various ways through your form, forcing you to react to them with the application you are on. For example for say the third tech in the form you will have 4 or 5 pre arranged attacks that the partners will use on you. This way you can get comfortablr adjusting that texhnique to deal with different attacks via several of that techs possible applications. Its almost free form yet structured enough to be consistent to avoid serious injury. No its not sparring and its not how a fight works but the techniques are real, against resisrance, and to a degree impromptu in regards to the application variant. And its hhheellllaa fun 
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1186164]ahhh…I gotta disagree here. Two person weapon sets teach attacks to the weapons. “clack”-“clack”-“clack”-“clack”
Real weapon vs weapon should never be this way.
The saying is,“When using the gwun, (pole) never make two sounds.”
-You strike the weapon, stick/slide to the hand,
or You strike the hand that holds the weapon, then the body,
or you simply go directly to the body.[/QUOTE]
Stick and slide to cut or smash the hands - this is how it’s supposed to be done in our double daggers against spear, broadsword against spear, staff against spear etc.
But I see a lot of people in my system handling their weapons in a dead way, hitting weapon against weapon, hitting the air 2 feet away from the target, countering even before the attack is made.
Control the other weapon, attack the hands. Or direct attack to the body.
Our 2 person weapons teach correctly. But the students don’t always practice correctly.
In practicing spear against 3 section staff we went direct to the targets. One classmate who partnered with my teacher, asked to not learn the routine after facing my teacher’s 3 section staff.
One time on that routine, I made high attack to the face which my classmate did not counter in time. My spear tip touched his cheek and I pulled the attack before he got hurt. He was pretty freaked out though. Our concession to safety was to aim at the cheek rather than the eyes or throat.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1186152]What’s your definition of “resisting opponent”? The word “resisting” can mean 2 different things.
If you use me to help you to develop your striking skill, and I just run away from you. If I can run faster than you, there is no way that you can land any punch on me. What kind of striking skill can you develop by using me as your training partner?
If you use me as your training partner to develop your “hip throw”. The moment that you touch me, the moment that I sink myself to the ground (maximum resistence). Will you be able to use me to develop your “hip throw”?[/QUOTE]
Our 2 man forms have both those types of “resistance”.
When the person escapes, he really has to make distance and speed to give you a hard time. The other person is forced to run him down to close for the attack. This is where you see the difference between our beginner footwork and the more advanced footwork details. That said, I’ve seen it done mostly incorrectly more often than correctly.
When the other person engages the force instead of escaping, the attacks have to be countered or they will land. And we do try to land them. Not to say that we are out of control though
One time we got yelled at by our teacher, “Mad dogs fighting!” He was insulting us because we didn’t understand how to be realistic and aggressive, but still have control.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1186164]ahhh…I gotta disagree here. Two person weapon sets teach attacks to the weapons. “clack”-“clack”-“clack”-“clack”…You strike the weapon, stick/slide to the hand,
[/QUOTE]
The " San Cai Sword Dual" in my system, the swords hardly even touch on each other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLyqCyHphx4
The 2 men form " hand striking pole" is just for that. Because your opponent’s pole will slide along your pole, that’s why the pole used to train are very big. This way since your hands cannot hold on the entire pole, when your opponent’s pole slides along your pole, you will trun the pole to let your oppponent’s pole to slide through.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1186118]I don’t like TCMA 2 men forms. I prefer to design my own. This way I can adjust the distance to be more combat realistic.[/QUOTE]
Traditional 2 man from your systems don’t have realistic distance???
We’re supposed to be punching at least elbow deep through his face. It’s his job to train his ability to get out of the way and counter.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1186196]The " San CAI Sword Dual" in my system, the swords hardly even touch on each other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLyqCyHphx4[/QUOTE]
In our daggers vs. spear, spear is forced to drop his weapon or get his fingers cut off.
[QUOTE=-N-;1186199]In our daggers vs. spear, spear is forced to drop his weapon or get his fingers cut off.[/QUOTE]
In my longfist system, we have Dao against spear. Back then i didn’t believe that Dao would have any chance to against spear because the length. The double daggers are much shorter than the spear.
The same in " San Cai Sword Dual". At 0.13 when your opponent’s sword stab at your chest, instead of using your sword to block on his sword, you step to the side, and cut on his wrist. It’s also showing at 0.26, 0.27, 0.31, …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GLyqCyHphx4
I’m glad that we can keep this thread going. For a while, I thought this forum had turned into WC forum or MMA forum.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1186203]In my longfist system, we have Dao against spear. Back then i didn’t believe that Dao would have any chance to against spear because the length. The double daggers are much shorter than the spear.
The same in " San Cai Sword Dual". At 0.13 when your opponent’s sword stab at your chest, instead of using your sword to block on his sword, you step to the side, and cut on his wrist. It’s also showing at 0.26, 0.27, 0.31, …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GLyqCyHphx4
I’m glad that we can keep this thread going. For a while, I thought this forum had turned into WC forum or MMA forum.[/QUOTE]
Most of the time it’s not worth posting due to all the troll stuff.
The technical discussion can be interesting for me. But even that sometimes is just superficial and it degenerates from there. People don’t seem interested in deeper detail discussion.
On the distance mismatch against spear… well that is the whole “point”(haha).
Daggers vs. Spear teaches how to have guts and go for the kill. Clear and jump the distance to spike the daggers down behind his collar bone or into his side. Not so easy when the spear keeps darting in to the face and the legs.
People ask what forms teach. That feel of how to get in can be one thing. And that is transferable to empty hand sparring as well. But only if the forms are done the right way and not like some fairy dance.
Learning Tools
In a recent thread on 2-man forms David Jamieson posted the following:
"2 man forms = discovery for students.
They help to develop coordination and understanding of the style in use. Beyond that, they are for demonstrative purposes pretty much exclusively.
intermediate learning tool. "
I really like the term “learning tool” and this got me thinking about kung fu curriculums in general. A legit criticism of TCMA is that we’ve taken “learning tools” and made them the end goal.
Forms, sparring, push hands, etc. These are tools to teach you how to fight. This is why we should never see these things made into contests. They are simply a scaffolding we set up temporarily, so we can tear it down. At least, we should be.
But on the flip side, you can’t put up a building without scaffolding, or at least it won’t be very sturdy.
In advanced training, you can work your 2 person hand sets harder by suprizing your partner by changing random techniques in the form. Change a vertical into a hook punch, change a snap toe kick into a jump round kick, instead of retreating… advance! etc etc.
2 person sets are geared more for performance but you get some good basic training out of them. Timing, distancing, courage and a bit of body conditioning (hitting and being hit) are always good basics.
ginosifu