Pure Wing Chun, Applied Wing Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

hey lawrence,

I think this is what sihing James is trying to say!

(jk james, please dont take offense hahaha)

anyway, i totally agree with you lawrence (about boztepe and lam) the way i see it its about the journey as much as the destination. funny too, all the martial arts teachers i actually trust have been there done that, experienced a few different martial arts and actually fought. i think really experience is so valuable. otherwise your just living in a bubble.

of course youve gotta have depth as well as breath. and sihing i’m not saying wing chun sucks and mma is the way to go, or everyone has to do mma, far from it wing chun is awesome and everyones journey and choices are personal. but i think the benefits FAR outweigh any downsides and if your in a position to do some (for example) mma training and you dont, or if you say any other martial art is a load of rubbish without actually educating yourself, your doing your wing chun a disservice. it allows us to get from pure conjecture to something we know in ourselves.

sure you can look at say wing chun geometry and say yeah i know if i shift correctly i wont get hit but i can hit him because of the shoulders and range etc, but is that really knowing in yourself from experience, or is it knowing on a purely intellectual level??? sure it works in class, but what about against someone outside that environment, or even a real boxer is a tricky b*stard?? what if you try it and it doesnt work :eek: (not that it wont ever, just it needs more training to iron out your mistakes, which you wont know unless you … etc…)

i’m a wing chun faithful, testing the limits of his faith and doing a first-hand course in comparative religion hahaha… dont choke me sihing for my lack of faith hahaha!

oh and tom kagan, the way i see wing chun is its a martial art, and those slants are personal choices what we choose to get out of it. so really there is no slant. out of interest what do you think wing chuns slant is?

anyway back to the point of the thread, i sort of liked the first post i mean there is a difference between pure wing chun (like some detail in dan chi for example) and applied wing chun (how to deal with a kicking attack for example) but utlimately the two should be the same, or as you said a continuum. for example doing very technical dan chi might seem pointless for fighting, but then if you do do it, you might find in an applied (fighting) situation that it makes a difference. so again i think it needs balance. you should probably take a concept or bit of detail, move in a form or whatever, and go across the whole spectrum with it, so start in the form, then chi sao, then lat sao drill, then for real. then back to the start and so on… but if you spend too much time at either end of the spectrum without visiting the other then youll be all out of balance, and end up not being as effective. what that balance is… dont ask me im not a teacher hahaha!

cheers!

22

WING CHUN IS AN EXCELLENT ART AND FIGHTING SYSTEM. uNFORTUNATLY LIKE MANY THERE THOSE PEOPLE WHO CAN’T MAKE IT COUNTR WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS BUT THAT GOES FOR ANY ART. IN RERGARDS TO MMA ALTHOUGH I HAVE MUCH RESPECT FOR THEIR ABILITIES AND THE CONDITIONING THEY MUST GO THROUGH REMEMBER IT STILL JUST A SPORT. TRY GRAPPLING IN THE STREET OR IN AN AREA WHERE THERE IS BROKEN GLASS, HYPERDERMIC NEEDLES OR MULTIPLE ATTACKERS. bELIEVE ME WHEN MMA FIRST CAME OUT EVERY POLICE DEPARTMENT HAD A WOODIE FOR IT NOW THEY HAVE REVISTED IT AND HAVE REALIZED THAT BEING ON THE GROUND IS NOT WHERE YOU WANT TO BE. THAT DOESN’T MEAN ONE SHOULD NOT KNOW ANYTHING IN THE ARENA EITHER. BUT HONESTLY, AMERICAN KUNG FU WAS TAUGHT TO US BY THOSE CHINESE KUNG FU PRACTICIONERS. I FOR ONE WAS TAUGHT BY ONE OF THEM AND I HAVE BEEN TRAINING FOR ABOUT 14 YEARS AND MY SIFU CAN STILL TOSS ME.

23

Cross dressing

May I ask, what did Willy Cheung cross train in?

Gary Lam may have crossed trained, but why doesn’t he feel the need to adopt his previous style(s) into wing chun? And, why doesn’t he train in Thai boxing any more?

Hawkins Cheung may have crossed trained, but why doesn’t he pratice karate any more?

More telling, why have they chosen wing chun over their previous styles? If cross training is productive in learning wing chun, why haven’t they incorporated this method to their teaching?

24

I have no idea what he did, or did not, cross train in, which is why I did not refer to him at all in my post.

He has, actually…
Ernie is probably the best person to describe the extent.

What makes you think he doesn’t? Or for that matter, that he doesn’t have a current interest in any other styles?

Likely, because karate shares many of the same weaknesses as wing chun unless it has been modified by modern training methods and insights gained from realistic sparring.

Wing Chun is a great style, IMO… Why not choose it as your primary art? :slight_smile:

Many good instructors have…aside from the aforementioned, guys like Chung K. Chow, Alan Orr, and a number of ex-EWTO masters also come to mind.

25

When “MMA” first came out, it was actually BJJ purists flopping into the guard, and tiring out the pure strikers before applying a submission… Few of those guys would last 60 seconds against today’s well-rounded competitors, though…

MMA is probably the fastest evolving (i.e. -improving) “martial art” there is… MMA today is not about taking the fight to the ground, -it’s about doing what’s most effective in a given situation.

Check out Straight Blast Gym’s MMA curriculum for law enforcement here:
http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/isrle25mb.wmv

I think you’ll be impressed by what you see there, Brian. :slight_smile:

Now let’s talk about about MMA and Wing Chun cross-trained!… Oh yeah!! :smiley:

-L

26

I dont mean to say that’s all MMA is about. I know it’s not. But The shelf life of a fighter is not extremly long. The thing I like about WC, Aikido and other atrs similar is that even when your fifty you are still just as effective or even more so. But the art doesn’t make the fighter but the person does. I appreciate your input from my last reply, i do personally cross train a little bit.

27

James,

First of all, this is a PUBLIC forum and people are free to express themselves as they see fit. You have no right to ask people to leave or disrespect them - despite your half-hearted comments to the contrary - because you don’t like what they have to say.

I don’t see why you feel the need to chastize people who don’t support your view. Your view should be able to withstand the challenge that others post.

I think that if you look at chisauking’s reply, you will see a much more mature response. At least that’s how I see it. :slight_smile:

28

Lawrence,

I watched the link you advised me on and I thought it was excellent. I for one teach my wing chun vry similar to the way the were showing it in terms of Chi Na techniques. If you noticed oone of the core things they did in almost every movement was keep the center line and face to face theory an almost constant. Therefore, I believe that when one does not properly adapt to the real world and it’s enviorment then you are truly not doing wing chun. Also, remember Wing Chun is meant for the average person to defend themselves again the average or above average person. It is not an antedote for verything or every situation, but you the practicioner must apply the art in a way that makes sence to you. That is why Wing Chun is a concept and does not or should not teach specific movements but rather teach how to feel oyur opponents movement and how you should respond. Thanks again for the link.

Brian

29

Lawrence,

Please define Skilled and Conditioned fighters? And since when did Idaho have a monopoly on them…

When was Boztepe a competitive fighter? Streetfighter yes, I have heard all the stories. I’ve also heard about Sifu Lam’s experiences, and I believe the same that a competitive experience will not hurt one’s usage of Martial skills, but is it really necessary? You say that if one’s trains to the same intensity as the competitors that the same results will prevail. I agree, hard testing of one’s skills have to take place for the student to actually learn and be able to apply the skills WC will engrain in them. You can call it whatever you want, sparring or testing, it is all the same. Now do I really have to go and fight with every competitive fighter in the city to do this? Well if my goal is to compete in the competitive theater, then maybe you are right, but not all want this type of experience. So IMO sparring and testing in the school against those that can test them sufficiently enough will suffice. I know from experience that I can test anyone in the school to a sufficient enough level of skill to be able to use it on the street. And there are many others in the kwoon that can provide the same. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, only thing is the pro’s through them faster and stronger, which can be dealt with when proper application of WC is applied. You see it doesn’t matter how fast or strong your attacker is when you have already slowed them down and taken away their strength with proper understanding and application of WC concept/principals and technique. As a practitioner I too have strength and speed to offer to my opponent, so it is not a one sided affair. All of us (when you are not physically disabled) have this to offer our opponents, so why do people here always claim it to be us as the weaklings and our opponents as so much more skilled and conditioned. In our kwoon, every day we have classes we have 1 conditioning/cardio class, which consists of very high intense kicking, punching, hand bag work, kicking/heavy bag work, push up, sit ups, leg raises, knee ups, etc etc…drills, lasting 1 hour. All kinds have come through the doors over the years to try the class, not one has gone through the whole workout the first time without having to stop. So that is covered in regards to how we train our students, and we are NOT a competitive/sport training facility (although we have had successes in the ring).

I think in essence we essentially agree on many points. To become effective in a fighting art, you have to practice consistently and train hard physically, with a good understanding of what one is training in. But physical training alone will not make you a great fighter. What you train in, how effective it is, and your understanding of it will add to the equation, IMO.

James

30

I agree with you Bill, each and every member here has a right to express their opinions, and whether or not I agree with them I would not and did not tell anyone to leave or ask them either. The words, “Why” and “Maybe” were used in my post you quoted. These words may be understood as a suggestion, not a command.

I don’t chastize people, but I wonder why, and confront those that claim to be practitioners of WC but look for every chance to put it down, that’s all and that’s what I have seen from a few on this forum (maybe that’s why most have left this forum to look elsewhere…). I have a faith in WC and when someone says in simple terms that it sucks, I get SLIGHTLY offended when I know otherwise. It’s not a personal thing, and I would love to meet everyone on this forum someday in a friendly environment to exchange ideas and train with, as this would be the only way to really understand what one another is try to explain to us all through these posts.

James

31

May I ask, what did Willy Cheung cross train in?

Sure you can ask. From memory, Nunchaku and Taiji, and probably a whole lot of stuff nobody’s heard about.

If cross training is productive in learning wing chun, why haven’t they incorporated this method to their teaching?

How do you know William Cheung hasn’t? My first KF instructor trained with him extensively in the late 1960’s. He actually, according to my instructor, had a very open mind at the time and occasionally taught his students things that would cause the purists on this forum to convulse with apoplexy. My instructor had a pretty comprehensive CLF background, and Mr Cheung used to send his students to his class to give them the experience against fighters who didn’t drink the WC koolaid. Cross training before the term was coined.

My first teacher was an eclectic stylist. I still regard myself as one, with a heavy emphasis on WC. Now I train with a WC teacher who has diversified. If that offends someone’s purist sensibilities …

GOOD.

32

The thing I like about WC, Aikido and other atrs similar is that even when your fifty you are still just as effective or even more so.

You young punks. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m 50 now, I did two hours of BJJ rolling and standing clinch work this morning. And reviewed all my WC forms with my instructor. I think the young pups I took down and tapped out ould say I’m effective enough.

Maybe the “old” people are all fat, lazy and decrepid where YOU come from … I see no reason why I can’t do WC and BJJ for another 20 years.

33

I’ll be turning 55 in about 4 weeks…and still ready to kick some a55. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Seriously…it’s about the shape you keep yourself in…including the Flexibility of your mind! :wink:

34

James, We’ve been through this several times in the past. It just seems that the name may change, but the game is the same. I just choose not to participate. I have come to conclusion that I no longer am interested in trying to convince others of my perspective. I’m willing to discuss it, but have no interest in getting into these mud slinging matches. As for “faith”, that is largely a personal thing. You cannot give faith to someone else. I remember a phrase that suits the situation, but I can’t remember the author…“To those that believe, no further proof is necessary. To those that do not, none will suffice.”

I don’t get offended, because we each much travel the path alone and find our own way, and someone else’s opinions are just that, opinions.

I would say that it would be difficult to have a friendly exchange of ideas, if we are going to be offended, even SLIGHTLY, by points of view that are bound to conflict with ours. You are right, it’s not a personal thing, so let’s not react as if it were. You need to have faith with your eyes wide open, not blindly. You cannot become dogmatic, or else your ability to grow will cease and probably atrophy.

Like you I hope to meet others on the forum, and I’ve had the extreme pleasure of meeting Old Jong and Victor. I can’t wait to meet others.

Cheers,

35

Well that’s good! It actually has some effectiveness.
As far as you know, you practice stuff with a practical application.

It’s a lot better than dividing WC into theories that are pure and not pure.
That just seems to justify learning things that you don’t understand the application of.

Now of course people are going to disagree about the RELATIVE effectiveness of this or that particular technique. But we are all concerned with applying the art.

36

questioning the worth of cross training

First of all, I’m not down grading cross training. I’m just curious to investigated what prominant wing chun practitioners had gained from cross training and what worth and values had they retained from their experiences. So far, there doesn’t seem to be any edvidence that those wing chun practitioners that had cross trained has incorporated any of their previous styles to their present wing chun.

Why is that so?

If Hawkings had invested so much time in karate, only to find the style wanting, what values had he gained from cross training, and was it necessary to cross train to begin with?

If Gary Lam spent so much time in thai boxing, only to discard most of it, what was the point of investing so much time in cross training in the first place?

Why had Wong Sheung Leung settled on wing chun even though he started with western boxing?

I think it’s wise to learn from people’s journies before we set out on the same track ourselves

37

Well if pure wing chun like dan chi can find an application, that pretty much means that it is not pure by Ray’s definition.

Effectiveness is still the goal though.

38

I’m just curious to investigated what prominant wing chun practitioners had gained from cross training and what worth and values had they retained from their experiences.

Well, OK, though it does sound a bit like you’re trying on appeals to authority to support your own POV.

There are probably as many other people who started with WC and went on to excellence in something else. As a WC practitioner you don’t hear about them because they aren’t, or don’t want to be, recognised as prominent WC practitioners. And perhaps you don’t want to look too hard in that direction, lest it weaken your argument?

Bruce Lee’s a prime example of someone who went the other way. You could argue that this was because he wasn’t taught the full system and this had to seek answers elsewhere, but you could apply the same argument to Hawkins’ experience with Karate and WSL’s with boxing. Maybe they didn’t apply themselves to those particular systems as they could/should have, or their trainers weren’t as thorough as they could/should have been. And, jeez, maybe WC just suited them better than other things - but you can’t extrapolate that out to say it’s going to be the single best system for everybody, or that sticking with a single system is necessarily the best approach for us all.

I think it’s wise to learn from people’s journies before we set out on the same track ourselves

No arguments there, but maybe you need to take your own advice seriously and look at a wider group of people and/or explore a bit deeper. Your earlier reference to William Cheung, which you’ve now dropped, perhaps turned out not to support your argument that well when you looked more closely at it, for example.

I don’t put Wing Chun down … but I don’t make it the subject of unwarranted boosting either.

39

I think so as well. Besides, in the truest sense of the word, nothing is really “pure” in this imperfect world. “Pure Gold” is only 99.99% gold, since the even the best refining process cannot remove all impurities. That being said, maybe the ideal of being “pure” is not all it’s cracked up to be.

40

Bill,

I disagree that the second half of the phrase fits here…

What generally attracts folks to cross-training is a pragmatism in their thinking; (what works? / what is functional? / what will be effective against skilled fighters?), -not an immature stubborness which would ever say; “I don’t care what evidence you show me, I won’t believe it.”

Every MMA fighter looks for an edge, and would be happy to accept most any insight, training method, etc. that would increase their performance, -no matter where it originated from.

Yet, who can blame fighters for being skeptical about most Wing Chun? Nearly every time they ask for evidence of it’s effectiveness, they are shown some lame, cooperative demo, or given an excuse why it can’t used successfully in an MMA environment (e.g. - “It’s too deadly.”)

If there were Wing Chun fighters suddenly becoming successful in the high level NHB events, there would be a number of MMA folks (at all levels) interested in exploring Wing Chun…

Cross-trainers are not at all like kool-aid drinkers who already have their minds made up. -They actually weigh rational evidence before making decisions.

-Lawrence