Hola
If U take the straight punch of WC …its a very weak punch if U compare to some other punch from CLF or a reverse punch and from boxing …right cross
Why WC players dont used the pheonix eye punch like the sountern mantis ,pak mei players …I know the punch existe in WC but not in the forms?
the discussion is open:)
Steeve
the WC punch
Steeeve-I dont comment much here- but your post caught my eye because you specifically asked a question about wing chun.. There are different sources of power. Different styles have different engines and different linkages in delivery.. The wing chun punch when properly developed is a very powerful
punch.
Several styles have the phoenix punch- wing chun does too- but it forms and delivers the phoenix eye in it’s own way. The principle is latent in several forms
and drills. Wing chun has a a chaotic diversity of schools and lineages. Wise to be careful about overgeneralizing about wing chun.
Discuss? Not really. Many threads on this forum go helter skelter without serious discussion. But if you think that the wing chun punch has little power compared to what you have mentioned- you have a right to your opinion.
Cheers,
Joy Chaudhuri
If U take the straight punch of WC …its a very weak punch if U compare to some other punch from CLF or a reverse punch and from boxing …right cross
The mechanics of the WC punch my school practises (slightly altered TWC) are very close to those espoused by Jack Dempsey on how to punch in “Championship Fighting.” There’s little difference between my rear hand WC punch and a boxing right cross.
I don’t dispute that other styles have powerful had techniques. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to experience them first hand.
TWC also uses the phoenix eye punch … but it is rarely seen because, according to William Cheung, it requires specialised hand conditioning for effective use, to the point where you can do phoenix eye pushups at least. Also, he believes that Dim Mak and similar point attacks are interesting in concept but not all that practical against a moving, resisting opponent. Better to stick with the basic tools … if you really need to cripple someone (why?), use a weapon. You’re not an ape, use a tool.
joy
I understood what U mean…Yes some wing chun lineage have the pheonix eye
but not a lot do it in the forms....I know ur lineage came from sifu Fong...I have train some and do seminar under GM Ho kam Ming
From my experience the wc punch power came from the turning stance or from the elbow if u dont have the time to turn …like the same punch used in southern mantis used the dip gwat (ribs power) ..
I apologize about my explainaition I dont mean its not powerful but i mean the circular punch have more power but less penetration…
Aner
The WC punch dont teach the hip action like in boxing …but im ok with adds it
like the JKD clan…and I agree with u about the dim mak stuff no time to strike a point in combat…
The basic tool is there with the straight punch we just have to change the weapons…
if u strike in the body with the pheonix eye or even in the face …its very destructive whatever u strike…
My questions now ....Does WC players used mostly the pheonix eyes punch at advanced level?
Steeve
I learned my Wing Chun from an old man that probably never heard of Ip man or any of these people you speak of today. I have read some words here that I am not familiar with. This Pheonix eye punch you speak of. I am not familiar with it. Would you describe it please? Thank you.
The Phoenix Eye fist, aka a Shoken in Japanese uses the second knuckle of the index finger supported by the thumb as a “pointy thing” for maximizing impacting force per square inch..
It was in WCK, it still is in some WCK and it is in the forms, just “overlooked” by many because Ip Man stopped teaching it when he started teaching in Hong Kong according to what I have read.
On the other hand, the Chung Choi punch also has a point, is easier to condition, more solid, transfers power better and has many other pluses that the PE does not, IMO.
WCK punches are also over used by most folks when there are lots of open hand moves which modern combative folks advocate over the use of fists.. Also WCK punching or striking has lots of power potential when the body is used over the arms to make power the problem again is that most WCK folks seem to be using the arm to make power, do not sync their strikes with proper footwork, sinking and body alignment and instead use the ever popular WCK “egg-beater” attack, hence little power..
Have you got the book? I have and use it often to relate that Wing Chun as the science of body mechanics turns up not just in other MA’s but in boxing as well, understanding how to utilise total body mass when striking or covering is the basis of Wing Chun.
I agree with the basic tool comment, in the heat of reality the Phoenix Eye needs a bit too much accuracy if you are going to use it for pressure points.
However my view on its use as a strike to the lower abdomen is that it has a function when the level of violence you are facing is not the highest and you just want to stop soemone in their tracks, reference to boxers who have gone round after round taking body shots and head shots, one low blow and they are poleaxed, using the Phoenix Eye’s inward & downward energy to penetrate the thin muscle wall of the lower abs does not require either too much conditioning or accuracy to be effective.
A friend who now lives in Hong Kong told me that most of the people he talked to mainly used the chopping action of the Knife form to develop their Phoenix Eye, its application can also be seen in the third section of the dummy aimed at the lymph node under the armpit.
It has also been related to me that Yip Man took it out of the mainstream teaching of the system as he felt that as Wing Chun was becoming more popular that it was too dangerous to teach along with Dim Mak.
To form the Phoenix Eye fist simply close the fist as normal and bring the joint of the thumb to support the first joint of the index finger, so that the index finger’s second knuckle forms the point of the contact, the fist is only slightly distorted and can still be used for a normal three knuckle punch.
In Foshan Wing Chun as transmitted by Lun Gai sifu, the phoenix eye is the primary punch in all the empty hand forms (don’t know about the wodden dummy though).
We do drill the sun character straight punch outside of forms though and do knuckle push ups for conditioning the lower 3 knuckles.
We have a punch/block drill where one of the actions is to punch under the armpit with the phoenix eye, like tjwingchun describes.
Ok, this Pheonix eye is nothing more than the Tiger Fist. In some forms it may be also called the Leopard Fist. It is not used as a punch exactly, but more as a very hard gouge. One can make holes in flesh with the Tiger Fist. It is not ( in my opinion) as effective as the finger stab or the slap hand. The finger stab can be dangerous, and the slap hand is the most natural way to hit. It may be considered girl fighting, but the slap hand can be the most devastating strike of all.
Another fist is made with the thumb protruding out over the first knuckle and held tightly. This can be used most efficiently against the throat and arm pit and upper under arm regions. The 3 point fist is best used in the center of the face, point of chin and tip of nose. It does not take huge power to drop an opponent with such a strike. Yet great power can be generated in a verticle punch.
It is my experience that fast hands give up power for speed. Rapid, multiple punching is not as likely to be as accurate or as powerful since a person can not brace for each strike. Striking with fluid motion, and using proper footwork and striking with solid form and structure is far more effective. And it can be done with surprising speed if a person practices all his skills rather then just some.
The WC punch dont teach the hip action like in boxing
You mean the lineages you study don’t teach this hip action. Mine does and always has.
…but im ok with adds it
like the JKD clan…and I agree with u about the dim mak stuff no time to strike a point in combat…
The basic tool is there with the straight punch we just have to change the weapons…
Agreed
if u strike in the body with the pheonix eye or even in the face …its very destructive whatever u strike…
Perhaps, but without proper hand conditioning it may be “very destructive” to your own punching hand.
My questions now …Does WC players used mostly the pheonix eyes punch at advanced level?
Not from what I’ve seen. WC’s all about mastering the basics and simplicity through integration rather than the use of exotic techniques.
Have you got the book?
Yes.
I have and use it often to relate that Wing Chun as the science of body mechanics turns up not just in other MA’s but in boxing as well, understanding how to utilise total body mass when striking or covering is the basis of Wing Chun.
I guess that makes two of us.
Wing Chun was becoming more popular that it was too dangerous to teach along with Dim Mak
You’d have to believe that Dim Mak works for that statement to carry any weight. Besides, it’s one of the five basic Xingyi strikes as well as being used in many other styles, including an Ohara publications book, and its laughable to think that taking it out of the WC you taught would stop anyone finding out about it.
It sounds like your “Another first” is what folks are talking about here. I know what a tiger or leopard fist is and it’s not the same as the Phoenix Eye.
I’ve learned Wing Chun through the Eddie Chong school and I never saw the Phoenix Eye until Bak Mei came along – and it is highly prevalent in that system.
Further, it is not used in a straight punch (well, maybe to the eye) but rather in the way that you have described which is “against the throat and arm pit and upper under arm regions.”
I would include the temple, the rib cage and various parts of the face to that list.
Anerlich
Wc punch have the hip action but not the same mechanist from boxing thats what I mean…
Le the phoenix eye punch is Ngan fong choi…not the panther(leopard) fist or half fist
Mek (the fushan bak mei used a lot of leopard fist and some phoenix eye punch I mean the version of Eddie)
Right the phoenix eye is for strike soft vital area or pressure ponit (if U could)…
The idea of conditionning the pheonix eye is good had some degree…dont destroy the knuckles…in souther mamntis the pheonix eye is train in a soft way…
The beauty of this punch is he could be feffective without the use of telegraphic motion…he could be very powerful and effective without the need of put all hip action (telegraphic)…the power came from the extension and contraction of the ribs …(Dip Gwut) and u could use it at very short distance of the target…
CFT
Interesting the WC of Lun Gai Sifu
Where I could find more info about his stystem…
Steeve
The old gentleman that gave me his Wing Chun came out of China in 1949 and he was a boxer during the 1900 revolution. First to Hong Kong, then San Francisco, then New Orleans. He taught recruits for a tong gang for most of his life. He adopted me in 1954, and gave me his name. I do not know of lineage or whatever, but I do know he called it Lee shin Sing Wing Chun. I do not know the proper spelling of that name, but it is pronounced this way. Lee it the family name, so I am thinking it was a family lineage. There was no Pheonix eye in his Kung Fu. There was what he called the Tiger Fist, and it was as you described almost, except that we also used the middle finger with the first finger. It is firmer and holds better.
It is wise if you expect to use your hand skills to condition your hands. Train them so to speak. Hands must also be trained to do the job right. I used a box of sand for my hands. That and a straw pad on a cinder block. I never slammed the knuckles into the pad, but more used a gouge. It toughens and hardens the hand. The sand will split the fingers in the beginning. No matter how strong your hands are, your hand will not hold when you stab it into the sand box. Eventually, the hand learns to allign itself in a way that it can hold perfectly during the stab. When you drive your hand to the wrist and the fingers hold, you can stab a man to death with it. You can severely damage a persons liver and other internal organs with the spear hand.
For me, the Tiger Fist is quick and easy to make, but the palm and heel of the hand is easier. So is the finger stab, or spear hand as he called it.
I never learned, or even seen the weapons forms, but the 3 empty hand forms are some different from what I have seen here on the internet. I suspect that each and every individual that excells to the point of Sifu will have his very own brand of Kung Fu. Wing Chun is not pure. It can not be pure. There are too many people passing it down.
As for your Pheonix Eye, it is nothing more than a variation of what I am refering to as a Tiger Fist. A Rose by any other name is still a Rose.
In todays society we can not blatently injure or kill other people. Training toward that end is not normally what people do today. They are more into compitition and play fighting, even if they do make contact. Rules against maiming and killing prevent you from going all out. How many of the people here have used their Wing Chun for defense? In a really serious situation where you were in danger of losing your very life?
Hi Lee Chiang Po
Lee Chiang Po i think your Wing Chun is Lee Shing Wing Chun wich is a form of Pien San Wing Chun this is the Wing Chun that Lee Shing learned in Koo Lo villiage in Kwangtung Province China it come from Leung Jan . The name of your Wing Chun called Lee Shin Sing Wing Chun is Lee Shings Pien San Koo Loo Wing Chun . There is a guy on this forum who practices Pien San Wing Chun you should ask him about it .
Sorry, but I can’t go there with you on this one. The punch using the middle finger in a “phoenix eye-like” way… I have never seen used in except by my kenpo friends. They call it a “dragon” punch. The fact is, my kenpo friends tell me to use it in a direct punch to the sternum. However, I do not agree with this use of it at all and would only use it in the fashion that I would use a phoenix eye. But then I’d just use the phoenix eye as it is firmer for this type of work.
My view of Dim Mak is that if you think of it as causing internal injury or bleeding then it will take some time for the injury or infection to take effect, if there is no modern medical diagnostic and treatment methods available the death by septicemia would be inevitable.
Not that I can speak for Yip Man but I can understand his reticence and wish not to be responsible for arming a wider community with what he thought of as a dangerous/fatal weapon when he saw that Wing Chun was set to become a global phenomenon.
Lee Chiang Po, it is my humble opinion that the old adage “Attack is the best form of defence.”, the trouble is that we face different levels of violence and need to make decisions about the level of response that is suitable, which is why the law takes into consideration “reasonable use of force”.
I always tell my students that the most difficult fight situation is the drunken relative at a funeral or wedding who is trying to take your head off and you don’t want to hurt them, lol 
the most dangerous is the confrontation with a good boxer or streetfighter as they would not be good if they could not take a punch to the head, which is where striking to soft tissue areas comes into play and the Phoenix Eye an option.
Sorry, but I can’t go there with you on this one. The punch using the middle finger in a “phoenix eye-like” way… I have never seen used in except by my kenpo friends. They call it a “dragon” punch. The fact is, my kenpo friends tell me to use it in a direct punch to the sternum. However, I do not agree with this use of it at all and would only use it in the fashion that I would use a phoenix eye. But then I’d just use the phoenix eye as it is firmer for this type of work.
When the Tiger Fist is made, you would have to look closely to see that it did include the middle knuckle. It looks like what you describe as a Pheonix Eye. It does not extend as far as the first knuckle either. It is more a brace than a point of impact. It makes the fist very firm and strong.
Mr. Lee learned his Kung Fu well before 1900, so if this fellow was from back then it is probably right. I do not know, and have not actually tried to trace the lineage. My father died in 1965, between 85 and 90 years old. I asked him his age, and he told me the year, but it did not match up with the dates and times we use in this country. Mother Jud told me he was between 85 and 90.
I study Foshan wingchun, and a lot of emphasis is put on the pheonix eye punch, in both forms and applications.
I havent studied the 3rd form yet, but both the first and second form use this punch many a time.
As for application, Im not too keen on using a pheonix eye for pressure point striking against a resisting opponent (although a fellow ex-student shot a decent pheonix eye to a guys temple when defending himself). It is however really effective for striking the breastplate, eye and just above the top lip.
craig
Not that I can speak for Yip Man but I can understand his reticence and wish not to be responsible for arming a wider community with what he thought of as a dangerous/fatal weapon when he saw that Wing Chun was set to become a global phenomenon.
Oh sure, whereas he kept the much safer butterfly swords and pole :rolleyes:
Lee Chiang Po
LEE SING WING CHUN
Founder: Lee Sing
Line: Line: (Yim Wing Chun & Leung Bok-Liu?) -> Wong Wah Bo & Leung Yee Tai -> Leung Jan -> Chan Wah Sun -> Fong Sung & Ng Chun So & Yip Man & some of Yip Man’s students (Lok Yiu, Jiu Wan, ?), ? - > Lee Sing
Curriculum: Siu Nim Tao; Chin Kuen (Arrow Punch); Chum Kiu; Sao Bao Kuen (Sandbag Form); Sap Lok Gerk Fat (16 Kicking Form); Seung Kwan Fat (Douple Stick Form); Chi Kwan Fat (Chi Kwan Set); Bil Chee; Chi Kung Fat (Chi Kung Set); Mok Yan Jong Fat; Luk Dim Boon Kwan (6 1/2 Pole- 4 different sets); Bart Jam Do (8 .
Note: I have been told that this style resembles the Sup Yee Sic of Yuen style, which came from Chueng Bo (a great-great grand-student of Fung Siu Ching) to Sum Nung. I have also heard that it uses something like Yuen style’s Hoi Sic (Opening Form which I believe Sum Nung created for Yuen forms) in which case it is very likely that there is a connection between Cheung Bo (or his “relatives”) and/or Sum Nung. Note: Both Yuen style and Fong style have also been called “Side Body” at times, so there may be another connection there.
http://www.wingchun.com/compiled.html
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=106
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=30
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=69
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=31
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=32
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=20
http://www.cebridge.com.au/Ipman/Sifus/Lee%20Shing.htm