Thus, I have heard,
before 1860,
sun punch is not popular for wing chun kuen.
Sun punch is a substitution of a much faster in accerelation and deep penetration more devastrating strike.
sets including the dummy set before the substitution of sun punch has that technic.
This technics 1, go with the bow string 2, back to its nature is issuing power.
Do you think the above is likely or it is just a His-story?
Re: sun punch is a substitution
I think it is false.
Can you do it, PKC? =) Let hear the arguments for this first. No, but I have heard of a bullet punch but even that is more of multiple actions packed in one sharp timing punch. Not related to your bow and string idea.
Substitution or evolution?
Hendrik,
What evidence do you have for their being a different strike?
If the original strike were more effective WHY would it have been changed for something less “efficient”?
Why would the change have propagated to all the various lineages? It would imply that the either:
a) there was no such change as the sun punch was always there and not a change within WCK.
b) That the change was early enough that the common teacher for all the lineages substituted it before WCK started it’s diaspora.
Sooo…if you can answer those questions on to the next set…
What does the older strike look like in terms of mechanics?
Why is the older strike more effective/efficient?
Are it’s mechanics consistent with Wing Chun principles?
Can you do it?
Why would there have been the substitution or evolution to the Sun Character punch? It is one of the hallmarks of WCK!
Originally posted by PaulH
Can you do it, PKC? =) Let hear the arguments for this first. No, but I have heard of a bullet punch but even that is more of multiple actions packed in one sharp timing punch. Not related to your bow and string idea.
1, Thus I have heard. 
2, let see how everyone think.
Re: Substitution or evolution?
Just for some discussion. dont take it serious AT ALL. have some fun!
thus as I have heard. So for shake of discussion.
Mo dak and cut down unneccessary casualty even within School.
my guess.
Cantonese opera was brought back to state after a decade or so of banning. Then, the Taiping was gone, the reberation was tame. a differrent era. Sun punch is always there since long long ago. dont get me wrong.
BTW, in Leong Jan’s and pre LJ time, rumos said there is only one set for wing chun not three either. I took that as rumos and never take it for anything worthed to look into.
Sooo…if you can answer those questions on to the next set…
Sun punch is like a laser blade which has been taken away the fast light up and decrease the laser strenght copare with it. to activate it instead of one hold tigh to the laser blade but just a flip shock.. but then that is just Pikachu GUESS with the way how pikachu create that electric ZAP from shivering the Pika’s body.
Because it is more close to nature of human body. similar to a spear is more effective then a pole in poking.
Take a way the blue canvast of a yellow farrary(sp) and one sees the spakling yellow farrary.
Thus I have heard.
it tooks only 1 second for the decendent of red boat to see the mother of the sun punch. then they will say "oh Sh@T! why dont I realized it before? " and laught with a big smile similar to they always never lost thier treasure. and walk away happy:D
I believe the ancestors in the red boat had the wisdom and compassionate to hide things in a simple and elegant way. But then I rather not know it or seeing it. otherwise, the definition of who is waterry ( I love doing watery and flowery stuffs. ) and the world’s ORDER has to be change :D.
and beside why put a cat out to hurt people? bad karma. Not the will of the ancestors I GUESS.
placing a case over the blade is not evolution but for protection.
hallmarks changes in different era and different location. everything subject to Localization Evolution.
just some pikachu day dream opinion.
ps. PlanetWC, how is the moon in your new home? have moon cake yet?
Re: Re: sun punch is a substitution
Originally posted by taltos
I think it is false.
great!
I am with you if it is possible!
life is more simple that way.
Pika pika Chu.
I peep a biu, and what do I see? Give me a five? =)
Originally posted by PaulH
I peep a biu, and what do I see? Give me a five? =)
forget about sun punch of moon punch or substitution or …
you buy me a moon cake and a cup of green tea and I show you how to take away the plastic coating of the electrical wire so you can shock people similar to pikachu how about that? Pika Pika.
To be happy is better then to be right! give you five!
Thanks! I’ll accept it graciously to buy that coming moon cake and the green tea! =D
Hello all,
Just stopping by to read the latest WC chit chat!
I am not sure if Hendrik and I are talking about the same thing but I have also heard this from my family. The Sun punch has become the more popular fist formation as it causes less damage. The Pao Choi is the bladed extension of that alignment! Same bone alignment just more nasty damage.
According to the teaching of Leung Jan in Koo Lo village as preserved by the Fung family the Lepard Fist (pao choi) penetrates deeper and has less muscular tension attached to it.
The Pao Choi is still preserved by the Leung Jan Wing Chun family in Koo Lo but even my own sifu (Mui Wai Hun) expresses concern with using it as it not nice. Sifu’s exact words to me regarding this is:
Jim, you do not need to use that! Its too dangerous. If you cannot defeat someone with the sun punch then you need to develop more. Be careful with that stuff. Back in the old days they fought for their lives and had to cause maximum damage but now a days that is not the case. Dont hurt someone if you dont have to!
I have attached a photo of Fung Keung sifu demonstrating the Pao Choi.
See ya,
Jim
The magic pill
The search for the magic pill
People always looking for short cuts like some secret from the past will make them see the light
People have been punching themselves since the dawn of time there is no secret punch , a punch is a punch
Proper body mechanics , mental and emotional focus and explosiveness .
The difference is in an experienced punch [ one that has knocked people out ] and a pretend one [ one that has just hit bags and pads and empty air ]
When you trust and have confidence in your punch , you relax and explode you don’t worry about the sun or the moon or silly yellow very gay looking creatures [ your getting very Michael Jackson on us hendrik ]
When you have experience , you have no more nervousness the punch is just a punch , it is an extension of your thought/emotion
Any punch can knock some one out
The real question is can you get your punch there while being punched and get there with proper speed timing , distance and power .
Or we can sit here and continue to dissect the corpse of a dead punch
Things disappear for a reason better things replace them , but if you live in the world of cartoons [ were human reality and physical restriction don’t exist ] I guess anything is possible
Screw the dead punch talk to me about your delivery system
Ps hendrik stay off the Jesus juice
Hello Ernie,
"The search for the magic pill
People always looking for short cuts like some secret from the past will make them see the light
People have been punching themselves since the dawn of time
A discussion about tools that have been part of WC since its founding is not a search for the magic pill IMO. JR
there is no secret punch , a punch is a punch
Secrets are only secrets if you know the stuff or not. JR
Proper body mechanics , mental and emotional focus and explosiveness ."
I agree with this but its a different topic. JR
A lot of the modern type mentality does not allow people to accept certain things. Evolution is certainly something one can accept of not. There is no secret or special anything. Its just some facts that you can accept or not. Wing Chun has been evolving for quite some time and its still evolving.
I like to look back and see how things were done to compare to how they are done now but some dont. Doesn’t make it a bad thing. Of course we must be able to use it but if everytime someone mentions something from the older generation of Wing Chunners or less evolved/modernized WC arts that stayed within the villages or families is regarded as mumbo jumbo then that is showing disrepect to the sources of our arts IMO.
Its a discussion and since a forum is used for discussing all aspects of WC from application to theory to methods to whatever I think certain things should not be regarded as The Magic Pill or Secrets if its not common or known by them.
“Things disappear for a reason better things replace them” Ernie
So, for you, this might be a “dead punch” but for me it may just be part of my normal training and the same goes for Hendrik if we are talking about the same thing.
Your Wing Chun comes from Yip Man. Yip’s line comes from Leung Jan. Leung Jan Wing Chun placed a heavy emphacis on this punch back in the day and its still used and preserved today by some of his decendants. So, is it a secret or magic or god’s punch? Only if you dont know it. If you do know it then its just part of your WC art like the other tools are.
If you want to talk about the deliery system or engine that powers it and other attributes then start that thread. Good conversation is good conversation. Nothing is better or worst.
Just my .02!
See ya,
Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[B]Hello Ernie,
See ya, [/B]
"The search for the magic pill
People always looking for short cuts like some secret from the past will make them see the light
People have been punching themselves since the dawn of time
A discussion about tools that have been part of WC since it’s founding is not a search for the magic pill IMO. JR
----- tools are functional and can be easily tested and evaluated for efficacy , but historical hype on the other hand is something else ---------------- E
A lot of the modern type mentality does not allow people to accept certain things.
----- we require proof not stories or sifu says , problem is when you ask someone to prove it suddenly they can’t it’s what some one else can do and of course that person is dead now —E
Evolution is certainly something one can accept of not. There is no secret or special anything. Its just some facts that you can accept or not. Wing Chun has been evolving for quite some time and its still evolving.
----- I agree and for the better I hope =) —E.
I like to look back and see how things were done to compare to how they are done now but some don’t.
---- Cool lets jump in a time machine and do that , or do you have actual footage or is just a hand me down story ? not trying to be rude , but if one is putting there life on the line in a combative situation wouldn’t a little actual physical proof be nice ? --------
Doesn’t make it a bad thing. Of course we must be able to use it but if every time someone mentions something from the older generation of Wing Chunners or less evolved/modernized WC arts that stayed within the villages or families is regarded as mumbo jumbo then that is showing disrespect to the sources of our arts IMO.
----- I don’t mean to be disrespectful , look at the source not the most educated people running around in the old villages , limited contact and exposure to the outside world and no TV =) big imaginations and stories get created , why chase ghost when you are alive today ? for entertainment possibly then that’s cool
but for combative efficacy then I would have my doubts … as for mentioning things from the old times they just stories man nothing more , if that’s the case never cut your hair I heard it caused big problems for Samson ----E
Its a discussion and since a forum is used for discussing all aspects of WC from application to theory to methods to whatever I think certain things should not be regarded as The Magic Pill or Secrets if its not common or known by them.
------ it’s cool to discuss and it’s just as cool for some one to bring up the holes in the discussion , this way there is something to discuss =) ---- E.
“Things disappear for a reason better things replace them” Ernie
So, for you, this might be a “dead punch” but for me it may just be part of my normal training and the same goes for Hendrix if we are talking about the same thing.
----- Cool there are many people that continue to do things just because , training generally has a purpose and a goal , but for some it just a repetitive action , do you every question something , I question everything and ask it to be proved on me , I take nothing on face value and I have kissed the floor many times from this but also blown out many myths as well , to each there own -------- E.
Your Wing Chun comes from Yip Man. Yip’s line comes from Leung Jan. Leung Jan Wing Chun placed a heavy emphasis on this punch back in the day and its still used and preserved today by some of his descendants. So, is it a secret or magic or god’s punch? Only if you don’t know it. If you do know it then its just part of your WC art like the other tools are.
------ My wing chun comes from Gary were he got his is his business and that’s as much as it matters to me , does it work and can I pull it off the rest is insignificant to me , I’m not in the business of preservation , I prefer application , if it works it will come out if it’s just some dead artifact it will stay on a shelf and collect dust what ever ------E.
Just my .02!
---- no worries , nothing personal I just don’t by the hype , but if we ever meet you are more then welcome to hit me with it and let me feel it’s power , that would be fun ----E.
Hello guys,
buy a few moon cakes and drink some tea. having fun and discuss with ease and relax. nothing worthed to take it that serious then happy.
pika pika
Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[B]Jim, you do not need to use that! Its too dangerous. If you cannot defeat someone with the sun punch then you need to develop more. Be careful with that stuff. Back in the old days they fought for their lives and had to cause maximum damage but now a days that is not the case. Dont hurt someone if you dont have to!
[/B]
Very respectable words!
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
[B]Hello guys,
buy a few moon cakes and drink some tea. having fun and discuss with ease and relax. nothing worthed to take it that serious then happy.
pika pika [/B]
man not worries [ or little yellow ball of imagination ]
i never take anything traditional serious
Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[B]
The Pao Choi is still preserved by the Leung Jan Wing Chun family in Koo Lo but even my own sifu (Mui Wai Hun) expresses concern with using it as it not nice. Sifu’s exact words to me regarding this is:
[/B]
Pao Choi or Chat Choi has two ways of using it . that is the Ying and Yang,
And that link to the Pikachu main-surbodinate chain effect concept of sliding up and leaking down… for the changes in each state…
and there is another ways of using it with totally rely on momentum and energy —
as it said in the kuen kuit,
Mo Yeng Poh Jung. No shadow break the Jung and " not dealing and not blocking, just a strike" ( I wont translate jung as center or middle here because Jung means more then center)
that is the game for those in the momentum and energy level… without kung fu of that level, one cannot operate in this range. saying is cheap. to be really there needs lot of kung fu.
pika pika
Originally posted by Ernie
[B]man not worries [ or little yellow ball of imagination ]
i never take anything traditional serious [/B]
hey dont insult that Yellow fur Ball of imagination man!
have fun be happy.
Hi Ernie,
----- tools are functional and can be easily tested and evaluated for efficacy , but historical hype on the other hand is something else ---------------- E
Absolutely. Read the very last paragraph on this reply for more tested/evalution info.. JR
----- we require proof not stories or sifu says , problem is when you ask someone to prove it suddenly they can’t it’s what some one else can do and of course that person is dead now —E
Yes and no. Some can prove things and some cannot. There is lots of this in the world. JR
----- I agree and for the better I hope =) —E.
Yes and no IMO. I have mixed feeling about this. Thats a different topic. JR
---- Cool lets jump in a time machine and do that , or do you have actual footage or is just a hand me down story ? not trying to be rude , but if one is putting there life on the line in a combative situation wouldn’t a little actual physical proof be nice ? --------
Well, you dont need a time machine. You have decendants of these people still preserving this stuff. Numerous! JR
----- I don’t mean to be disrespectful , look at the source not the most educated people running around in the old villages , limited contact and exposure to the outside world and no TV =) big imaginations and stories get created , why chase ghost when you are alive today ? for entertainment possibly then that’s cool
but for combative efficacy then I would have my doubts … as for mentioning things from the old times they just stories man nothing more , if that’s the case never cut your hair I heard it caused big problems for Samson ----E
Well, I do not agree with this. These people are part of the modern world. TV’s, cell phones etc.. Believe it or not! They also do fight with all sorts of people but its just not as public. Plus! Many are even in Hong Kong and other places. I have watched footage of many of these older so-called less known guys fighting people. Some of my favorite fights were watching an old South Mantis Sifu hit a guy sooo hard he was lifted off the ground and landed flat on his back. The problem is most of the public think because its not in the public eye its not worthy. JR
------ it’s cool to discuss and it’s just as cool for some one to bring up the holes in the discussion , this way there is something to discuss =) ---- E.
True but often you get this:
So what are the different ways to blah blah?
Reply:
Who cares! I am a fighter. Just use it and wake up.
The problem we have is that different discussion can go no where if this is the only answer. We need to be able to discuss on many levels. There is training, theory, usage, sparring and then Real Street Experience etc.. JR
----- Cool there are many people that continue to do things just because , training generally has a purpose and a goal , but for some it just a repetitive action , do you every question something , I question everything and ask it to be proved on me , I take nothing on face value and I have kissed the floor many times from this but also blown out many myths as well , to each there own -------- E.
Someone once told me:
Respect your art/Respect your sifu/Question your art/Question your sifu! Etc.. Just because someone says something it doesn’t mean didly unless I have seen it used with good force and efficiancy. JR
------ My wing chun comes from Gary were he got his is his business and that’s as much as it matters to me , does it work and can I pull it off the rest is insignificant to me , I’m not in the business of preservation , I prefer application , if it works it will come out if it’s just some dead artifact it will stay on a shelf and collect dust what ever ------E.
Good point but you are doing WCK. WCK came from somewhere and has developed into something or maybe is still being done in other ways or whatever. Application is the end result and very important but What if Joe Smoe does WC like this and his brother does WC like that. Then! You see his older uncle doing WC a bit different and its still very effective. Being effective is more about the individual and what htye put into versus the art IMO. Its not about being an artifact. Just because something is a bit more popular or easy to find it does not mean what many others preserve out of the mainstream is not equally as valuable. JR
---- no worries , nothing personal I just don’t by the hype , but if we ever meet you are more then welcome to hit me with it and let me feel it’s power , that would be fun ----E.
Cool! For what its worth I can help you find out more about this with one simple e-mail. Some of the Wong Shun Leung fighters from Australia in recent years have visited the so-called artifact! hehe John Smith and others have visited my Pin Sun Wing Chun uncle Fung Keung sifu in Hong Kong. John even posted his photo with him on his web site. Fung sifu explain and demonstrated the Pao Choi on John and others. They have also went at it. Yup! Tested their skill against each other! I would post John’s e-mails to me on this site but that would not be proper. Since you guys are from the same family (YM/WSL) you should e-mail John and others to ask about the Artifact! hehe I see on your site you have photo’s of David Peterson and others. John and David are close. I will leave you his web site address and you can contact him. I know you respect David and WSL family. This is a nice and quick way to get some first hand experienced info..
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jr.smith/
Nice speaking with you,