With all the forms of kung fu practiced by the people on thus forum they all have something in common: a southern origin. This can be from a temple or just a geographical location. With the new issue of Kung Fu Qi Gong Magazine on news stands, I’m sure those of you who read it have read the article on the original southern temple being confirmed and now being rebuilt. The temple plans to become a full fledged school of Shaolin and buddhist teachings and I’ve wondered, as many kung fu masters have left china during the communist ideological campaign of “good comrades don’t fight”, are there many Sifu’s that wish to return to where their “ancestors” trained. Do they want to take on the responsibility of teaching the original, or what is left of the original arts? Can the temple ever be anything similar to what it was or just another attempt at capturing some piece of culture that has been lost due to modern times?
I find these questions interesting and hope to see the temple up and running and teaching good kung fu.
Many of us with ancestorship in Southern Fujianese and Shaolin arts have already been asked to the Putian temple or Other related Soutern Shaolin Meetings.
As for a period of few years we were asked to return to teach our arts this includes taizuquan, wuzuquan, Luohanquan etc… back to those of the new Putian Temple.
Fact is there is no greater reward for a martial artist than the art itself. So Temple or no temple it is what you now hold not what can be imagined.
SM - That site you posted above is by the very same author of the article we ran in our Jan/Feb 2003 issue on stands now. He even mentions the article there, but it doesn’t look like his link to us is live yet.
Gene- Nice dream but I doubt that Humpty Dumpty can be put back together again. “The moving finger writes and moves on…”.
Much water under the bridge since the coming of the PRC. Some of the new rebuilding moves are simply commerce under state
authorization. A Buddhist is a Buddhist- no matter where they are.
And Chen Xiao Wang in Australia is no less a Taiji person…
Wing Lam in California is no less a Hung Gar person etc.
Joy Chaudhuri
The tematic parks have been the salvation table for Disney corporation.
If China have a plan to exploit tourism I don’t think is a bad idea, in a commercially focus, use the Shaolin Temple as main attracttions.
About Msters return to China, I think it depends if they have more success inside or outside China. In the case of Chen Xiao Wan I think that he have more opportunietes making seminars around the world.
I think the really great thing is the discovery of the actual historical Southern Sil Lum Temple. I would have preferred if they would have preserved the site as is after fully excavating it and built the new temple adjacent to it. What arts they bring there…well it would be great if they brought traditional southern sil Lum arts home again. It is true the traditional southern fist is alive across the world, but they should also exist in the southern temple.
Gene,
Apologies, unfortunately although I used to purchase your magaizine issues, sinceI have been in China it is unobtainable and the price (85Yuan or so) if found is way high in comparison to the Chinese magazines which of course as you know contain fantastic information and discussions as well (WuLin,WuHun,QingWu,Wudang,ShaolinYuTaiji,ZhongHuaWushu etc for 3-4Yuan).
TOpic,
In china there are currently two movements: The Wushu commercial movement and the traditional one. It is unfortunately the Wushu demonstrative onethat is winning. Thisis actually dueto the generalpublic they enjoy falshiness over real skill. SOit isa difficult situation and may always be. However,if southern shaolin attracts tourists it will attract customerswhich will attract teachers which is better than keeping them in an old village passing the time with no successors. WIthout trying something sometimes nothing will happen.
My Sifu co-authored the article and his site has more information on the temple including other aspects of southern kung fu he teaches.
Here is the link:
The on line info at Shaolin West Kwoon is pretty much the same as on the above link (except Gene, there is an active link to K/Q on Shaolin West’s Links page!). The authors current printed article in K/Q’s current issue has more info than their on line version.
…Actually it’s not up to the government. It’s up to us. This attitude about the reconstruction of Shaolin has always irked me. It’s the PRC, or it’s wushu, or tourism. We actually have quite a bit of control. Right now, Nan Shaolinsi is solicting folk masters to help rebuild it’s southern lineages, just as Songshan Shaolinsi has done. So if you want Shaolin to be something, to be connected to your lineage, you go back and put it there. I know some people who are doing just that.
Of course, CMA has spread around the world, and that’s great. But we all must honor our origins - it’s the Confucian thing to do. Take for example, Bodh Gaya (where Buddha was enlightened) as a model. Now there’s no doubt that Buddhism has valid transmissions around the world. In fact, it’s pretty small in India now. The Mahabodhi temple (next to the diamond seat - the actual spot where Buddha was enlightened) was looted pretty bad during the colonial years and fell into a state of disrepair. But since then, it has been rebuilt and countries from around the world have built temples, each in their own cultural style. Japan, China, Tibet, Thailand, and many other countries have brought their teaching back to Bodh Gaya. I was disappointed to see the America has yet to do anything there. But while I was there, there were pilgrimages of all sorts, different cultures, different rituals, all buddhism. And the tourism, that was the worst place I have ever been for scamming tourists. We literally had to flee in the dead of night when it is not recommended to travel since the roads a ridden with dacoits (bandits) who prey on tourists. Their tradition of tourist milking goes back thousands of years.
So my point is, sure Shaolin can’t be the same as it was. After all, there’s indoor plumbing, electricity, phones, even internet. No, we can’t go back. But we can go on. We can be more. And it’s up to us.
Bring the masters from Taiwan and Hong Kong back into it (southern shaolin) and we would see a large body of the southern fist laws revived i would think.
The arts that the kmt has kept in it’s various organizations over the years and the chinese freemasons who have the arts that they brought out of china.
there needs to be a large culmination of materials and masters followed by a sorting (a la 1928 tourney of sorts), then cannonizing and codification and finally redistribution of the final result vis a vis the shaolin temple.
same as the northern temple.
the PRC will need to open their arms to the traditionalists for real.
I think it’s possible that this is and will continue to happen in our lifetimes. As newer and fresher thinkers come to power in China and all over the world many things will open.
Shaolin temple played a small part in the development of kung fu. Even if it had played a large part. the geographic origns is of little relvence today. what practical reasons would there be for masters of today going back to china when they may may successful businesses in US, HK or Taiwan? I think you a nothing more than a nostalgic SOB. You should stop feeling that way as another year is just about to go by!
Shaolin temple played a small part in the development of kung fu.
Man you sure need to get a history lesson! The Sil Lum Temple(s) was the major source for edifying, codifying, expanding, testing etc. etc. etc. many of the major martial arts in China.
what practical reasons would there be for masters of today going back to china when they may may successful businesses in US, HK or Taiwan?
There is more to life than just running a business…if it were otherwise, no sifu would have ever taught…on the whole there is little to no money when a sifu teaches the traditional way.
I think you (WP) a nothing more than a nostalgic SOB.
What can I say other than you are rude and ignorant.
You should stop feeling that way as another year is just about to go by!
Has nothing to do with the end of a year…it has to do with a significant archeological find and bringing traditional Southern Sil Lum martial arts back to their origin, rather than having just contemporary wushu
“Man you sure need to get a history lesson! The Sil Lum Temple(s) was the major source for edifying, codifying, expanding, testing etc. etc. etc. many of the major martial arts in China.”
Martial arts originated in many regions in china and to certain degree they co developed or developed in parallel. In the north, the martial arts styles had major influences from central asia. I would go so far as to say that kung fu is a modern term for martial arts in china. Now China is an arbitary term, it refers more to present political boarders than the social-economics of the past. To say that kung fu originated from shaolin temple is to take away the rich history of kung fu which is exactly what modern wu shu has been doing for a long time.
Good kung fu - especially those from the north are tested on battle fileds. villiage kung fu including those from shaolin temple are not properly tested. later in the 18thC to early 1900s some northern kung fu masters did teach in shaolin temple, which led to the creation of certain branches of the orignal kung fu system.
“There is more to life than just running a business…if it were otherwise, no sifu would have ever taught…on the whole there is little to no money when a sifu teaches the traditional way.”
No. Good kung fu masters used to get paid very well in the military. That to me is the traditional way (an honest way) kung fu should be taught. The shamsters are those southern masters who promise mastery of a style after a life time and a half of training. are you one of those sucker students?
"Has nothing to do with the end of a year…it has to do with a significant archeological find and bringing traditional Southern Sil Lum martial arts back to their origin, rather than having just contemporary wushu "
It’s impossible to trace the origin of a style. it’s more effective to catagorize them in terms of similar characteristics. firstly eliminating those that don’t work, which reduces the set to northern kung fu only.
villiage kung fu including those from shaolin temple are not properly tested
Like I said…you need a history lesson. You are way off base here, and not just a little pompous with regard to Northern systems of Chinese martial arts. These village arts were in the front lines against the Ching and they have been tested time and time again on the streets since that time.
To say that kung fu originated from shaolin temple is to take away the rich history of kung fu which is exactly what modern wu shu has been doing for a long time
I clearly stated “The Sil Lum Temple(s) was the major source for edifying, codifying, expanding, testing etc. etc. etc. many of the major martial arts in China”…Let me explain further…Some styles were formed in the Shaolin Temples both southern and northern, others were brought into the temple(s) from already existing styles and expanded on, codified and further developed.
No. Good kung fu masters used to get paid very well in the military
Not all good Masters were in the Military…some were because they sided with the Ching, some were moles to gain info to overthrow the Ching and other great Masters resisted the Ching and fought against the Ching…need an example…Wong Fei Hung, who is one of the Greatest and most revered Masters even to day, along with his most famous student Lam Sai Wing.
The shamsters are those southern masters who promise mastery of a style after a life time and a half of training. are you one of those sucker students?
I do both Southern and Northern Shaolin. On the streets when I have had to defend myself, I used Southern to effectively and efficiently defend myself in life and death fights and numerous other confrontations (having worked in law enforcement). The Southern system gave me those skills, so…then I will gladly be a “sucker student” in your words.
I seriously doubt that the villages confronted the Ching armies directly. They were farmers and merchants as opposed to being professional fighters. In contrast northern kung fu has been and continues to be used in the chinese military.
Shaolin temple was not a major source. I agee some arts were brought into the temple by “monks” but that happened on an infequent basis. what was documented in the temples were accordingly second hand from the original sources. The arts have generally been tested before arriving at the temples.
Kung fu existed before the Ching. The disposed dynasty did have good fighters of nothern kung fu and had a military back ground. they became the moles etc… you spoke of. Wong fei hung is over rated. He did southern kung fu.
In law enforcement you use guns to shoot people who feel that they are lucky punks. no need for kung fu.
History..recorded history proves you wrong…so you still need a history lesson or two and a lesson in reality.
You presume all villagers were farmers!..please come down to reality. Besides, you think farmers couldn’t do good kung fu…where do you think the set with the hoe came from, or the horse bench or the wu dip do and who do you think used them…answer…farmers and butchers, blacksmiths etc.
Kung fu existed before the Ching.
Shaolin temple existed before the Ching. By the way who you gonna call…when it comes to routing Japanese pirates?..the emperor at the time called Shaolin to defeat them…not his troops…they couldn’t get the job done.
In law enforcement you use guns to shoot people who feel that they are lucky punks. no need for kung fu.
You have been watching too many dirty Harry movies there guy.
Obviously you have never been involved in law enforcement. Like I said, I do both Southern and Northern Shaolin…I find Southern works better in serious encounters on the street…real life experience there guy.
Wong Fei Hung overated!..pleaaase :rolleyes: Chinese have built a monument and building in his Honor, he is celebrated in movies and plays adinfinitum…gee how many million Chinese revere his memory, you think this occurs for just anyone without having achieved greatness through action and character?..think you pretty much stand alone there buddy on your view of him.
Well, enough said…no point in debating this further with you.
Sopme postulate that the Southern Shaolin Temple was entirely mythological. According to some, Shaolin monks were sent by the Songshan temple to defend the coast. They brought artifacts marked “Shaolin” and resided in various Buddhist temples in the area. Over time, the myths grew so much that people believed there really was a Southern Shaolin Temple. Is this the true version? It doesn’t really matter now.
Right now, a massive buddhist temple/martial arts school has been erected in Fujian. Right now, they are actively researching the roots of southern styles. So far, I’ve heard that they are focusing on Ziranmen since it is popular locally apparently and the Songshan curriculam since many of the monks are from Songshan. Right now, many ‘traditional’ masters are going back to visit this new temple, bringing with them there research and legacies. Where else are martial artists going to come together on a project like this? An L.A. strip mall? :rolleyes:
There may have never been a southern shaolin temple before. Let’s build one now.
