I was hoping to see some of your responses to my comment about martial arts and the cultivation of virtue. The reason for this is that I know how little this is emphasized by many of the teachers we are familiar with. When it comes to PM the question becomes more difficult because of how the MA developed. By that I mean that wang long was ( according to many) not involved in any religious community and merely wanted to develop a fighting system that would defeat the buddhist monks. Just the same, I have no doubt that he was heavily under the cultural contexts in place at the time… which were Daoist and Confucian. What do you think about This Discussion??? IS it valuable? DId not the founders of Most all the MA styles have a philisophical worldview in mind along with spiritual goals which their Gong Fu helped them to achieve??
I think this is a wonderful topic to explore.
Personally, I don’t see how we can judge the development of any system based on stories. We don’t know for certain just why Wong Long (or is it Wang Lang?) developed the system. The story goes as it goes, but it might not necessarily be true.
I don’t think martial arts can be developed without the individual’s morality. The martial art is what the individual makes of it.
Personally, I don’t know enough about Taoist or Confucianist to make judgements. The only book on Taoism I’ve read is the Tao of Pooh (as in Winnie the Pooh). Great read, but I don’t know how accurate it is to the Taoist belief system. I enjoyed the principals and put them to use in my practice and sparring.
But, since schools cater to the public, I don’t know if it’s possible to assign a religion to a martial art and demand people follow it. Everyone has their own religious beliefs and that must be respected.
Robin
If you want to sail across the great ‘water’ you need a strong ship, one that will support you well on the long journey. Then you must learn to ’sail’ it well, staying away from the known ‘shoals’ and guiding firmly through both extremes of storm and boredom.
In the long outward journey of 'higher level’ moral/spiritual practice one’s BODY is the ship that supports, protects, and ‘carries’ the spirit. Many ‘spiritual’ people neglect the condition of their ship with the common result of illness (physical and psychological) interrupting or corrupting their moral/spiritual journey as they reach the deeper ‘ocean’/older ages.
The care and maintenance of the ship is done best through a practice that continually strengthens, grounds, and rejuvenates the body like a traditional martial art.
Chi doesn’t know virtue from evil. It is undifferentiated. It can go ‘either’ way, from service to control. An effective martial practice builds the chi, while simultaneously giving the dedicated practitioner an outlet for expressing aggression and handling fear, the two traditional ‘barriers’ to virtuous spiritual development.
Ideally, the martial art functions like a strong ship, with timbers that withstand the ‘waves’, and sails that refuse to rip in the winds. Still though, every ship needs a Captain, and the compass he reads is in his heart. It is there (inside one’s heart) that each martial artist must choose what ‘heading’ he is on. Yes others have gone this same way before, but all they can say is “land is that way’. The storms and dangers we will face are uniquely our own, from our own time and influenced by our own personality. The gift from our martial ancestors is a strong and effective boat, but we still have to sail it.
How to Build a Car- by Chef Avi Bauen
A wise person once told me, “if you want to learn martial arts, go to a place that teaches martial arts. If you want to learn morality & virtue, go to a place of religious worship*”.
I agree.
I do not think that a kwoon should have to teach morality nor virtue; just martial arts!
*actually he said “church”.
spiralstair,
eskimos didn’t need ships at all. seems they’ve recently found proof of them way down in south america- but i do get your point, well said
beitanglang,
on the surface i believe that what you say is true, but of course then we have to define martial art, which i think has to contain a code of ethics. besides, your arguement basically denies shaolin, nowadays that’s easy but back in the day…
cohesion of roots and practice
neither Taoism nor Buddhism are deistic. in their original states, neither were religions which offered a faith-based system to their adherents, but rather philosophies based upon an objective observance of nature, and of man’s seamless integration with it.
based on this supposition, it’s somewhat amazing to me that the traditional chinese martial arts are so separate from their philosophical roots.
when did the study of a taoist martial art (bagua, hsing i, taiji chuan) or a buddhist art (too many to mention, including our own PM) become separate from the philosophy that gave rise to it?
my own philosophy is Taoist. my interest and pursuit of it is a direct outgrowth of my study of 7*PM. all that said, none of my Sifu’s have ever directly ‘taught’ me any Taoist philosophy, although my desire at times has been otherwise.
Originally posted by flem
[B]beitanglang,
on the surface i believe that what you say is true, but of course then we have to define martial art, which i think has to contain a code of ethics. besides, your arguement basically denies shaolin, nowadays that’s easy but back in the day… [/B]
Yes, but not all ma’s are from shaolin. If mantis were being taught at a temple today, I would not attend. As far as ones ethics goes, I cannot see a temple nor martial art change those without brainwashing you. your personal ethics/morality/virtue are ingrained into you from your childhood. Granted they change in phases (approx 5 times in a lifetime), but the “core base” almost always stays the same despite what face you show others.
No need to go back in the day,…more mantis has been taught outside a temple than it has ever been taught inside one.
Great topic!
Best Wishes,
BTL
Greetings…
Would we give someone a gun with no instruction on the appropriate use of it?.. Personally, i find it irresponsible to teach Martial Arts without the ethics of appropriate use.. That does not imply religion.
Philosophically, i find Taoist beliefs to be sound and rooted in historical justification.. i offer instruction as to the philosophical basis of Taoism to those interested at a seperate time from regular class, but.. i do not support religious adherence to any system, that is a personal choice. Frequently i make reference to Taoist perceptions relative to Tai Chi during regular class but that is part of Tai Chi’s history and shouldn’t be ignored.
In a total system of Kung Fu history is important, health is important, ethics are important… i have dismissed more than one student due to an unhealthy attitude or a poor moral standard.. if you don’t weed the garden the whole crop suffers..
Be well..
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
[B]Greetings…
Would we give someone a gun with no instruction on the appropriate use of it?.. Personally, i find it irresponsible to teach Martial Arts without the ethics of appropriate use.. That does not imply religion.
While I agree with you, what about Lee Harvey Oswald? He was very well trained in the use of his weapon. No indication of what his mental state was till it was too late. My cousins boy; nameless, was a blackbelt in m/a. Broke one cops ribs & one of their arms & had to be stun-gunned.
Just a couple examples off the top of my head.
Philosophically, i find Taoist beliefs to be sound and rooted in historical justification.. i offer instruction as to the philosophical basis of Taoism to those interested at a seperate time from regular class, but.. i do not support religious adherence to any system, that is a personal choice. Frequently i make reference to Taoist perceptions relative to Tai Chi during regular class but that is part of Tai Chi’s history and shouldn’t be ignored.
In a total system of Kung Fu history is important, health is important, ethics are important… i have dismissed more than one student due to an unhealthy attitude or a poor moral standard.. if you don’t weed the garden the whole crop suffers..
Be well.. [/B]
Teaching the history of your art is what one should be doing as a teacher. I am glad you are ddoing so. Tai Chi is an art rich in history & steeped in powerful fighting origin.
Religion has no place in the ma classroom for sure.
While I agree with dismissing a student for unhealthy attitude & displaying poor moral standards, dismissing someone for it vs. teaching it as part of an art are diametricly opposed.
If someone is already moral & vituous, what is there to teach?
Just some thoughts.
Very fun discussion indeed.
lost - or deminishing elements
taoism and buddhism, at least as far as my understanding of it’s depth of curriculum in the temples went, included a wide-ranging array of discipline that was seen as contiguous: meditation and herbology were just a couple of those.
meditation to aid in mental focusing and rechanneling ‘events’ such as fear and pain; herbology and anatomical study to supplement and heal the body, both during the training process and following injury - do not these areas of study, which are widely regarded as part of the “religions” of our various art’s histories - have a place in the modern MA school?
BeiTangLang
Greetings..
While I agree with you, what about Lee Harvey Oswald? He was very well trained in the use of his weapon. No indication of what his mental state was till it was too late. My cousins boy; nameless, was a blackbelt in m/a. Broke one cops ribs & one of their arms & had to be stun-gunned.
I cannot account for individual personality flaws.. i can, however, attend to my own sense of moral obligation.. i am compelled by my own values to teach respect for ALL life, to emphasize that violence is the LAST resort, to balance my lessons that may hurt another person with lessons on how to help heal that person as well.. and, in the end, teach how to decisively and favorably manage a physical confrontation..
While I agree with dismissing a student for unhealthy attitude & displaying poor moral standards, dismissing someone for it vs. teaching it as part of an art are diametricly opposed.
If someone is already moral & vituous, what is there to teach?
Regardless of the character of a new student, as far as i’m concerned, they deserve the opportunity to demonstrate a desire for change if its needed, indeed, if already moral and virtuous there is no harm in supporting those values with regular instruction.. I cannot “teach” appropriate values, i can only live my version of them.. i can counsel students as to flaws i perceive, or praise them for exemplary behavior.. but, whenever it becomes clear to me that a student’s intent is dishonorable and he/she is unwilling to change, i must not let that attitude be associated with my own school or negatively impact other students.. CMA is an amazing and comprehesive system for health, meditation and superior self-defense.. should it not also represent a moral standard?
Be well..
Re: lost - or deminishing elements
Originally posted by laotzumantis
[B]taoism and buddhism, at least as far as my understanding of it’s depth of curriculum in the temples went, included a wide-ranging array of discipline that was seen as contiguous: meditation and herbology were just a couple of those.
meditation to aid in mental focusing and rechanneling ‘events’ such as fear and pain; herbology and anatomical study to supplement and heal the body, both during the training process and following injury - do not these areas of study, which are widely regarded as part of the “religions” of our various art’s histories - have a place in the modern MA school? [/B]
Herbology, anatomical study & focusing the mind are indeed a part of ma’s. teaching someone wrong from right is ingrained in a person from childhood & can only rarely be changed.
I am not opposed to helping someone by praise or discouragement as TaiChiBob said, but as he also said,“I cannot teach approprate values..”. Nor should he be expected to as a Martial Arts instructor.
However, being held to a moral “higher” standard just because you participate in martial arts is unrealistic, but indeed something one should strive to acheive on a personal level.
Once again, I do not think kung fu should ,nor does this.
As far as being a student in a school that does try to teach morality, you are most likely filled with very good students, but some that are surely putting on a false face for your benefit.
Best Wishes,
BTL
I know a lot of kung fu guys who talk like they’re the paragons of moral virtue but have absolutely no respect for others.
100% of the time, it’s due to inadequate training.
beitanglang,
there is truth to what you say, but as bruce lee said in tao of jeet kune do “it takes effort to be kind…” can’t remember the rest, don’t want to get up(lol) any way, your basic arguement is that we bring our morality to the school, but as you said we change, what 5 times in a lifetime?, i feel that many enter the school during those times. some looking for THE answer, others just seeking a step, but all trying to find direction of some type. i think the example given in the 1st karate kid describes what can and can’t be taught/learned. i do not think religeon should or need be taught, but the inner standards that a teacher pocesses will be passed on. this forum is a prime example of this after all so many ex wal lummers are catorgorized as having similar thought patterns, the pong lai guys… the state the arts are in today are diiirectly related to this attitude that they need no moral compass- the martial arts are more than that or they are empty- as i know a large # of people who THINK they have fighting skills, but that is as far as it goes!
I think the difficulty is the use of words here. Religion is being used where I think spiritiality is more appropriate. I think that the practice of Wude (martial virtue) is an integral part of Martial arts practice. When one gets to the higher levels of martial arts I think one returns to their Taoist and/or Buddist roots. I think thats why during the cultural revolution there was such a frantic striiving by the “authorities” to get rid of the traditional wushu which was later replaced with the contemporary form which is more prevelant today. The moral aspect is absent. The traditional path I think is one where the whole person, mental, physical and spiritual is improved. This is not necessarily a good/evil type thing. I’d like to think the improvment that comes from striving to these levels is beyond the good/evil paradigm. This makes sense since the underlying philosophies of Taoism/Buddism don’t go there either. So there’s definitely a spirtual element. If that improvement isn’t there then your Kung Fu won’t be totally there I don’t see them as being separate things. The spiritual element is an extention of the physical morals come along for the ride. Kung fu is awareness and awareness is spiritual.
Just my thoughts
baldmonk,
you are right on brother, that is what i was after, yours is just more understandable- even to me!
“Teaching” ethics should be conducted in the same manner as other types of teaching. Discussion and questioning should be encouraged, and whoever asks of anyone to be virtuous should be striving for that road him/herself.
Ethical theory is central to my degree in philosophy, and makes up a great deal of my thinking and everyday life. Ethical practice and thought do not necessarily belong to Religion in the way many are using the word here. If you want to learn virtue and ethics you should be able to find them almost everywhere…not just in a building dedicated to a religion. (If it is, one runs the risk of understanding ethics as simply “opinions” and not a basis for human need, human society, and cultural richness.)
Take care.
RYU
Greetings..
Excellent post..
Excellent choice of words… Ethics..
a basis for human need, human society, and cultural richness.)
Thanks, and Be well..
Right on Ryu. Ethics must be taught along with the skills. Would you hand a shotgun to a 10 year old without teaching them when it should and should not be used?
I hear lots of talk about how one should teach “morals” with MA. Don’t you really mean that you think people should be taught YOUR morals? Ethical codes can vary to levels that some find abhorrent while still being present. My art teaches a moral code; it teaches the most effective ways of being a treacherous, passive-agressive, lying, cheating backstabber. Does that count?