[QUOTE=HardWork8;887563]We NEVER exhale like boxers in our Wing Chun training. The way we do it is very deep (from the dan-tien) and it is very subtle and uses a different “mechanism” to upper body breathing.
In some kung fu styles you may hear the exhalation(eg. some Tiger styles) but again the breath will originate in the dan-tien, reflecting in part, the internal (and quite often forgotten) side of all kung fu training.
Having said that, if we are talking about “Modern Kung Fu”, then I suppose that it is a case of anything goes.:eek:[/QUOTE]
You got that right, and the killer part about all of this; is that someone, or a practitioner that have been training kung fu for over 20 years should know better… There are no differences that are compatible between eastern and western ideals; especially the concepts of breathing (Martial Arts) and for one too do so, will be taking a short cut.
And to mix the two is nothing more then b@stardizing the martial concepts between the east and the west, and to say; that this is what one does or should do is nothing more then hypocrisy on both ends of the candle…
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;887549]Kung Fu people exhale as well depending on the style. Many are similar to boxers.[/QUOTE]
I exhale on contact. I consciously practice this when hitting the mitts or the bag. For me, it puts focus into the attack. I also think it’s important practice for when the ish hits the fan. When under stress, it’s harder to breathe. For me - in tense situations - I hyperventilate and can’t get enough air out. So for me, breathing out is a focus and de-stressing tool.
[QUOTE=couch;887589]I exhale on contact. I consciously practice this when hitting the mitts or the bag. For me, it puts focus into the attack. I also think it’s important practice for when the ish hits the fan. When under stress, it’s harder to breathe. For me - in tense situations - I hyperventilate and can’t get enough air out. So for me, breathing out is a focus and de-stressing tool.[/QUOTE]I don’t think anyone is saying don’t exhale on contact. There seems to be an issue as to whether ‘occidental’ and ‘oriental’ martial arts do it in a different way.
When you are stressed I would contend that both do it in the same ‘natural’ way rather than the ‘trained’ way.
FWIW, Yip Man is said to have said to breathe naturally. AFAIK, this was always a major difference between wing chun and many other kf styles. And I don’t know of any mention he made of the dantien at all. Anyone supposedly speaking from a Yip Man lineage about dantien breathing care to back that up?
[QUOTE=Chuan fa;885234]Most people who lift heavy weights a lot end up looking a bit rigid.[/QUOTE]Yeah, cos Wanderlei Silva, Randy Couture, Fedor, Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Ali, Bruce Lee… all stiff as boards… :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;887661]Yeah, cos Wanderlei Silva, Randy Couture, Fedor, Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Ali, Bruce Lee… all stiff as boards… :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Those ridgid mofus !
Like GSP too, that stiff *******, or even numbnuts VanDame, that guy could even do the splits !
Or Dolph Lundegren, that inflexable monkey !
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;887660]FWIW, Yip Man is said to have said to breathe naturally.[/quote]
I understand that in the Far East during Yip Man’s time many people breathed naturally through their bellies. Actually, that is the way I was taught to breath. However, when striking I was told to breath out through the dan-tien and there are various ways of doing even that.
Anyway, I do not practice the Yip Man lineage of Wing Chun, but I doubt very much if Yip Man breathed out like boxer everytime he hit the bag.
The fact that other sifus are doing so may in part explain the attraction that Wing Chun has for “kickboxer” fraternity.
In our school the training of Chi Kung is a fundemental part of Wing Chun. Infact, the first part of Siu Lim Tao is on one level a chi kung exercise. You cannot have internals/chi kung without the proper dan-tien breathing.
I doubt that but then I could be wrong, but apparently at least the mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun that I practice is jam packed with Chi Kung.
I could be wrong again, but many traditional teachers of kung fu did/do not “mention” the internals just to any one, but then he Yip Man may have just “taken out” those aspects together with the various grappling and striking techniques which he did not deem viable for his school.
Having said that, I know for a fact that former Yip Man student (or disciple?) William Cheung has for a while had a book out on Chi kung training, but then again Wong Shong Leung did not seem to advocate such training. It is all confusing.:eek:
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;887675]Those ridgid mofus !
Like GSP too, that stiff *******, or even numbnuts VanDame, that guy could even do the splits !
Or Dolph Lundegren, that inflexable monkey ![/QUOTE]
When we talk about relaxation in kung fu we are really talking about different levels that far exceed what you see in the “external”…ah nevermind…it didn’t sink in before and it won’t be sinking in now.:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=CFT;887607]I don’t think anyone is saying don’t exhale on contact. There seems to be an issue as to whether ‘occidental’ and ‘oriental’ martial arts do it in a different way.
When you are stressed I would contend that both do it in the same ‘natural’ way rather than the ‘trained’ way.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree here.
People do breathe differently for sure. People with Asthma are said to breathe through thier mouth more than the nose which is said to be a contributor to the condition, this gives rise to more Carbons in thier system…
But as far as fighting i think once youve been tagged and/ or your adrenaline is up your going to have a hard time trying to breathe in a trained way if you havent been learning to do so most of your life…
From personal experience breathing techs go out the window when your nose is busted and you only have your mouth to rely on…and your getting punched there :o
FWIW, Yip Man is said to have said to breathe naturally. AFAIK, this was always a major difference between wing chun and many other kf styles. And I don’t know of any mention he made of the dantien at all. Anyone supposedly speaking from a Yip Man lineage about dantien breathing care to back that up?
The only thing my Sifu ever said the old man taught him about breathing was during the forms to take one deep breathe in and three bursts out repeated over and over untill the form is finished. Breathing out as you want to release force !
in through the nose out through the mouth…
Nothing mystical, just practical. Well in his opinion LOL.
And to mix the two is nothing more then b@stardizing the martial concepts between the east and the west
Wouldnt it be tayloring it to the individual… :rolleyes:
I mean it cant be any more b@stardized than a westener being taught kung fu in the first place can it :eek: LOL
For the sake of the discussion - the amount of asians with different takes on WC alone, one could argue is already b@stardizing the system…
Its a personal thing…*******ization is perspective IMO
[QUOTE=Ali. R;887581]You got that right, and the killer part about all of this; is that someone, or a practitioner that have been training kung fu for over 20 years should know better… There are no differences that are compatible between eastern and western ideals; especially the concepts of breathing (Martial Arts) and for one too do so, will be taking a short cut.[/quote]
You are right and unfortunately Wing Chun and Kung Fu are in the mess that they are in today because of these short cuts.
[QUOTE=HardWork8;887801]You are right and unfortunately Wing Chun and Kung Fu are in the mess that they are in today because of these short cuts.[/QUOTE]
With regard to breathing - Why would you consider someone not using Dan tien type methods as taking a shortcut…
Basically - what does one method offer that the other doesnt ?
Last time i checked there had been no hard evidence that one created better results in terms of cardio and power generation than the other.
If im wrong can you provide a link to some evidence that might enlighten me ?
We have some medical proffessionals in the house here, care to offer your opinions ?
People do breathe differently for sure. People with Asthma are said to breathe through thier mouth more than the nose which is said to be a contributor to the condition, this gives rise to more Carbons in thier system…[/quote]
If people breath or have to breath differently because of medical conditions then that is another story.
Actually talking about Asthma, did you know that some chi-kung exercises can help sufferers. Did you know that there is some Chi kung training that includes breathing in through the mouth and breathing out through the nose. There is more to chi kung than meets the eye.
I think that there is some misunderstanding here. The general idea in the beginning of ones kung fu journey is to get one to breath with the belly focusing on the dan-tien.
In time one will start breathing in this manner as one goes about one’s daily business, meaning that when one is attacked he will be breathing “normally” rather than a “trained” manner.
Westerners only b@sterdize kung fu when they add the “superior”, “easy”, “practical” western training methods to arts that they do not fully understand.
Different takes on any kung fu system can be very healthy AS LONG AS they comply with the concepts and principles of a given style.
The way I have been taught this art dictates that you first master and understand the art and then and ONLY THEN you can personalize it fully. Otherwise you are just taking short cuts and filling in the gaps as they are convenient for you.
Put another way, first become the style and then let the style become you.
[QUOTE=Liddel;887803]With regard to breathing - Why would you consider someone not using Dan tien type methods as taking a shortcut…[/quote]
Because the dan tien method is part of traditional kung fu (and karate) training and if one doesn’t follow the tradition and goes for the easier option, then he is taking short cut.
Authenticity. Which is a good thing if you are training ANY kung fu style and ESPECIALLY nowadays.
Better health. That is according to Chinese medical theory and not Western “take a pill and feel good” theory.
Use of dan tien breathing in chi kung exercises for hardening body [martial application].
Better stance work, hence structure as it helps “sinking” (not relevant for the modern “kung fu - ist” who hops around like boxer when he fights) [martial application].
Issuing of soft power and penetrative power (including vibration). I am afraid that this last point is not going to be easy to explain to someone who has not trained in the relevant way.[Martial application]
Maybe you didn’t check in the right places and before you ask me where, I’ll tell you that all that info has to come from your sifu just like it did to me from two separate sifus of two separate kung fu styles on two separate continents. So there is correlation.:eek:
I am afraid that the answers that you are looking for will only come from an authentic sifu and not me (I can just point the finger), nor the internet and nor for the most part(unfortunately) any books on the subject.
Why medical professionals? Why not kung fu professionals? Or have you given up too on finding actual kung fu professionals in the forums?
What have we come to? It is bad enough having glorified kickboxers regularly putting their foot in it by giving advice on the external aspects of kung fu training, but now we need doctors to varify the credibility of the kung fu internals???
We live in interesting times.:rolleyes:
And by the way, did you mean Traditional Chinese medical professionals or their Western Counterparts?
Interesting enough, just today I witnessed a Physical Therapist explaining this very concept of dan tien breathing to his patient, in proper medical terms of course.
Maybe you didn’t check in the right places
Au contraire, mon frere. I believe it is you who should as google likes to say, “broaden you search parameters.”
And to mix the two is nothing more then b@stardizing the martial concepts between the east and the west
But, but … you teach both WC and boxing. How can you do that with a straight face if you believe that statement? Come on.
Most KF styles, including WC, came about through the synthesis of concepts and ideas that went before. If you (general) can’t do that across the great East/West divide, IMO the problem is with you, not the concepts themselves.
Au contraire, mon frere. I believe it is you who should as google likes to say, “broaden you search parameters.”
Amen. Russian MA have a highly sophisticated system of breathing, movement and alignment every bit as sophisticated, albeit less cloaked in flowery language and claims, as Qigong.
Rickson, and a wide variety of other BJJ/MMA mishmashers, like Mario Sperry, practice hatha yoga and pranayama. Tim Cartmell bridges TMA and the “modern” MA’s pretty effectively.
BTW, I’ve been reading a book called “The Brain that changes itself”, by Norman Doidge, about neuroplasticity.
There is a difference in thought patterns between individuals raised Eastern and Western culture. Eastern test subjects did better on holistic type tests, worse on those requiring attention to particular details. You need both attributes to succeed at fighting and training for it … , of course you may not to succeed at WC.
The book postulates that ,while it is much easier during childhood, you can change the way your brain works at any stage of life.
I see that you still harbor negative feelings towards me. It is understandable after what I did to you a while back in the other thread, but then you were being as rude as you are now. So you have only yourself to blame.
Here, you are deliberately misrepresenting my statement or are you just being deliberately stupid?
I don’t believe that you just made a statement like that.
By the way, how is your kick boxing training, whoops sorry I mean your “kung fu”:rolleyes: training coming along? LOL!
I see that your sifu has not been holding anything back from you, old boy.:rolleyes:
“…and this dan tien breathing”??? Oh boy, that remark exposes so much about your kung fu ‘knowledge’.
Yes I know and that is because Traditional Japanese Martial Arts as well as a few other indigineous systems use it too, albeit at different levels.
Not as much as you have shown why you have no business commenting on anything kung fu related!
Only for those who have no hope in heell of understanding it through the kung fu perspective (that is, even if your statement was true to start with).
Incorrect and false deregatory statement meant to give credibility (at my expense) to your kung fu comments. That is credibility which at the present is non-existant.
The “what” answers the “why”! [I bet that statement will confuse him for a few hours at least. ]
My greatest shortcoming has been the fact that I waste so much typing time trying to explain relatively simple kung fu facts to glorified kickboxers such as yourself.
Just as soon as you I stop laughing at your provocative comments, I suppose?
Besides, even if I “knew half as much as I thought I knew”, it would still be a 100 times more than you - that is regarding kung fu and not glorified kickboxing.
I don’t have to answer “why” because the “question” was flawed to start with.
Maybe you should go and post to your fellow knuckleheads in the mixed martial arts section of this site before you embarass yourself even further.:rolleyes:
If you want to “make a buck” out of kung fu then you should go to your own “sifu” for advice. He seems to have done very well with you.
LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
Thanks for that. A good laugh never hurts.
Unfortunately some of your “experts” wouldn’t know where to start.
In that case your “experts” should first go and learn some of the relevant concepts from Traditional Chinese doctors and while they are at it they should practice some authentic kung fu for a few years, so that they can EXPERIENCE its various aspects and have a REFERENCE and some NOTION (unlike you) of what they are dealing with, before they apply their “expertise” to advanced Traditional Kung Fu concepts.
That kind of humility would be very welcome from Western medical experts as well.
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;887819]Interesting enough, just today I witnessed a Physical Therapist explaining this very concept of dan tien breathing to his patient, in proper medical terms of course.[/quote]
Boy, I wish I was a fly on the wall on that occasion.:eek:
I will, if you promise to find a decent kung fu school and practice diligently so that you will at least have a notion of what you are talking about (if it is any consolation your French is not too bad:rolleyes:).
[QUOTE=anerlich;887839]
Amen. Russian MA have a highly sophisticated system of breathing, movement and alignment every bit as sophisticated, albeit less cloaked in flowery language and claims, as Qigong.[/quote]
You say “every bit as sophisticated…” as Chinese martial arts. What is your basis for that comment? What is your experience of Chinese qigong or indeed the Russian one?
What makes you think that there is no substance behind the “flowery language”?
And yet both cultures have been successful in fighting for thousands of years.
[QUOTE=anerlich;887839]But, but … you teach both WC and boxing. How can you do that with a straight face if you believe that statement? Come on.
Most KF styles, including WC, came about through the synthesis of concepts and ideas that went before. If you (general) can’t do that across the great East/West divide, IMO the problem is with you, not the concepts themselves.
Amen. Russian MA have a highly sophisticated system of breathing, movement and alignment every bit as sophisticated, albeit less cloaked in flowery language and claims, as Qigong.
Rickson, and a wide variety of other BJJ/MMA mishmashers, like Mario Sperry, practice hatha yoga and pranayama. Tim Cartmell bridges TMA and the “modern” MA’s pretty effectively.
BTW, I’ve been reading a book called “The Brain that changes itself”, by Norman Doidge, about neuroplasticity.
There is a difference in thought patterns between individuals raised Eastern and Western culture. Eastern test subjects did better on holistic type tests, worse on those requiring attention to particular details. You need both attributes to succeed at fighting and training for it … , of course you may not to succeed at WC.
The book postulates that ,while it is much easier during childhood, you can change the way your brain works at any stage of life.[/QUOTE]
In a Mind’s eye is another very good book.
There are also many articles out there on the “rewiring” of the brain.
What is your experience of Chinese qigong or indeed the Russian one?
A great deal more and more richer than your own, I expect.
What makes you think that there is no substance behind the “flowery language”?
My comment was on the language, not the substance. I never said Qigong was insubstantial. Learn to read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anerlich
The book postulates that ,while it is much easier during childhood, you can change the way your brain works at any stage of life.
I hope that you are reading this SoCo kung fu!
If anyone on this thread appears to suffer from one-way thinking, that would most likely be you. No offense.
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