obssession with competition

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

what is that all about anyway?

many of the posters here are seemingly obssessed with ufc/pride/nhb/wwe etc etc. and claim on their heroes in these events.

what is it that you see in these events that translates as acquiring “kungfu”?

It’s fighting. ok

it’s competitive fighting for money. ok

it’s got some excellent grapplers and stand up martial artists. ok

it’s got some naturals who do a little of this , a little of that and win. ok

but ultimately, where does holistic transformative Kungfu training come into this picture?

If your teacher wants you to enter one of these things don’t you think you would start by watching a few videos, breaking out the moves of the winners and training to counter against those?

The guys who really do well in these competitions are professionals. THey don’t have day jobs, (for the most part). THey have the time to give 6 a day every day to the fight training.

If you are one of these guys, great! but if you are a typical 6 a week Kung fu/karate/tkd/mt etc etc person that doesn’t train at home and against resisting opponents of different backgrounds, then it’s a tv fantasy.

Anyway, I just hope that I don’t ever become an armchair martial artist. at least not until I’m really old and can hardly move.

food for thought

cheers

2

Since you have recently posted some wisdom related words,I hope you do not mind me thinking loudly about a line which went like..:
One who does not compete,
cannot be competed with etc. (related)
From TTC if memory serves.
Just one application of it could relate to this,reducing the amount of struggling.

3

Kung Lek,

“WARRIOR SPIRIT”. is what it is about. Fighting, Testing, Challenging, Training, Preparing, Doubting, Fearing, Tiring, Desiring, Loving, Hating.

Its about a “gut check” to have the courage and ability to fight an at least equally skilled opponent under scrutiny of peers and fans.

but ultimately, where does holistic transformative Kungfu training come into this picture?

Holsitic “mock warriors” have no place in modern combative sports.

Anything else I can clue you in on?

4

Anything else I can clue you in on?

yes, why do you have such an ascerbic spirit in your posts? :smiley:

cheers

5

The biggest source of this focus is that CMA - to date- have not stepped up to the plate in NHB, and as a result are largely considered useless by those seeking self-defense training.

If this continues, CMA will truly be the sick man of Asia, relegated to the same importance as pilates or seen as a place for geeks who want to feel ‘special’ to hang out.

While I am not a pro fighter, and stopped my amateur fighting some time ago to focus on my career - this is the reason I spar regulartly with MMA types.

If my kung fu didn’t work against them, I’d be forced to learn something else for self-defense.

Fortunately I do well, but you’d surprised how many CMA guys never really learned how to train and use what they ‘know.’

Do you learn how to swim in a classroom, and are then confident you can handle the water and waves? To truly understand your CMA you must test it, even a little. That is also an important crucible for the transformative effects of CMA you discuss. The health benefts are good - but the true connection of the mind/body/spirit test comes from faceing yourself - on the fighting floor.

Just my two cents…

6

Why am I acerbic (the correct spelling)?

Why do you come off as being priggish?

Because I’m tired of kungfu people like you. You are a disservice, a burden, and a joke to the seemingly minority of people who truly understand what kungfu is and the horrid state that it is now in.

This post is proof-positive of that. It disgusts me. Kungfu has become synonymous with “new age” and “holistic”.

Kungfu is dead. Do Not Resuscitate.

Kungfu = Jujutsu . A conglomerate of hundreds of styles, with no connecting principles flowing thru them. Lack of testing (war) led to influx of impractical technique

Sanshou = Judo. Analysis and stripping of techniques back down to basic technique with underlying principle connecting them. “maximum efficiency with minimum effort” Training is as modern as possible and tested regularly.

Sanshou like judo modifies techniques so that students can train at 100%. Result= better fighters.

Kungfu’s “morals” - Clinging on the coat tails of Shaolin monks. reading scripts of futile aspirations, tea ceremonies and plenty of neo- confusionism for all. Believing that they are honoring their ancestors. Again very similar to jujutsu and the samurai they worshipped.

Sanshou - like Judo believes strongly in “you and I shining together” much more similar to the actual warriors moral codes. discipline, respect, focus, determination, comraderie etc.

And sanshou’s pretty sister “comtemporary wushu”. Again taking the analysis of traditional kungfu, finding a central principle (acrobatics, beauty, asthetics) an making it superior.

In modern times, what can kungfu offer except homage to an dead art?

7

My few cents at this very point are that the poor ma (horse) has been whipped enough to not feel a thing anymore,may the creature rest in peace.
As long as there will be ppl concerned about their dignity in relation to outsider´s eyes,there is the possibility of related arguments about it.
I personally find it a bit odd also,that something is considered useless (in terms of protection) if it is not sport related…
nothing wrong with decent training of course,well that´s it.

8

spelling corrections? :smiley:

kungfu in a bad state? I dunno about that. There’s plenty of apt, compitent and proficient stylists out there.

As for me, well you don’t even know me but you make presumptions. Too bad for you, cause I’d likely buy you a beer if I met ya.

However, you have answered all my posts with immediate negative responses.

Why do you call yourself shaolin?

cheers

9

There’s plenty of apt, compitent and proficient stylists out there.

Please name one. :slight_smile:

As for me, well you don’t even know me but you make presumptions. Too bad for you, cause I’d likely buy you a beer if I met ya.

Kung Lek - Don’ take it as a personal attack. I’m sure you’re a swell guy, but when it comes to fighting.. let’s just say I disagree. you are the sacrificial lamb of my rant against kung fu.

Why do you call yourself shaolin? Respect for my teachers and the training they have given me. Don’t expect me to use a leopard paw strike anyime soon.

10

that something is considered useless (in terms of protection) if it is not sport related…

No one ever made that assumption, but those techniques should be additions to a core method, not a system in itself.

btw what makes you think that jab / cross combo of sport is so different to jab the eyes / palm strike to the jaw ?

11

Back to the original post

Here’s my view, I’d love to hear comments on it:

Looking at the original post, (This thread is somewhat getting derailed a bit) I’d have to agree with Kung Lek’s point. I believe Shaolin is taking certain things a bit too literally perhaps, and picked up the wrong message. At first glance it looks as if Kung Lek is speaking against competitions in general, correct me if I’m wrong but I beleive his biggest gripe is against the idolization of the UFC/Pride types of comps.

I feel the average Joe cannot compete in these types of events. MMA training or otherwise. I personally would love to compete at that level but at this moment for me and every other average Joe it’s inconceivable. The possible injuries would cause me to not make it to work, eventually lose my job, and the time on the road would not make the boss, or the wife happy. I train 6 days a week, half at home, half in the kwoon, but because of my undeniable limitations due to everyday responsibilities I cannot compete at the level I ultimately wish, so the question comes up why do i train at all? I trust that you are all great martial atrist, and know that non of you really need me to answer that question. It would take too long. But I believe this is where the original posters point would come in. :slight_smile:

12

ShaolinTiger, while I can respect your opinion of the state of kung fu, I can’t agree with the reasons you give.

Kungfu = Jujutsu . A conglomerate of hundreds of styles, with no connecting principles flowing thru them. Lack of testing (war) led to influx of impractical technique

Conglomeration or not, connecting principles are a basic foundation of kung fu systems. If you can’t get from Point A to Point B in a fighting combination, your attacks (and defenses for that matter) will be limited and most likely ineffective. Learning to move naturally and almost instinctively in a fight is why connecting principles are taught.

Sanshou = Judo.

Wrong. Few judo players I’ve ever met can hit as well as they grapple. Although they can choke you out. :smiley: Right on the maximum efficiency idea, though. Sanshou is all about fighting in a ring, for competition. Also, I don’t think most sanshou fighters train with beer as part of their diet, which I thought was the best part of my brief foray into judo.

Kungfu’s “morals” - Clinging on the coat tails of Shaolin monks. reading scripts of futile aspirations, tea ceremonies and plenty of neo- confusionism for all. Believing that they are honoring their ancestors.

I agree that some kungfu neophytes worship the Shaolin monks and the idea of shaolin, while others buy everything that looks Chinese, kung fu-ish or otherwise and start creating their own confucian ideals. Personally, I don’t think there’s a **** thing wrong with this – it’s a way of exploring a culture that’s new to you.

Honoring your ancestors is a very important tradition in kung fu. And this is where I think you’re getting kung fu “morals” (wu de) confused with kung fu tradition. Your description of Sanshou’s focus (“discipline, respect, focus, determination, camaraderie, etc.”) is wu de, and this moral code permeates all kung fu.

Tradition itself is important because it upholds the principle of wu de (or should). Honoring the ancestors? Respect. Practicing stances & basics? Discipline. Focus. Determination. Treating those you train with and those you interact with fairly? Respect and camaraderie. Modern military units uphold traditions, as well – not because they make you more efficient or a better fighter, but because they glue the unit together as a family.

Kungfu has become synonymous with “new age” and “holistic”.

Um, “holistic” is a term to describe a “whole person.” Traditional kung fu works to develop a whole person, so what’s wrong with that?

When you say “new age” you’re probably thinking of some skinny, bearded California hippie who does yoga and just happened to pick up a tai chi form at some seminar and now teaches it at day spas. Yes, this type of person gives both martial arts AND new age a bad name. But my experience in kung fu has been that this type of “new-ager” can’t stick with the program for several years. Your heart has to be in the right place to accomplish anything, and all the love beads and peace signs in the world won’t make your kung fu better.

Now, if you happen to be a vegetarian pacifist who can also kick ass (and I know a few) – ShaolinTiger00 seems to be looking for some proof of it. Shaolin, give them your address so they can demonstrate that kung fu is still alive and kicking. I recommend wearing headgear before you answer the door. :smiley:

13

William Easlick

4516 Chestnut St.
Bethesda MD 20814

Please come before 8.pm. the baby will be asleep.
:slight_smile:

14

Oh, and uh, back to the original topic …

IMO competition for traditional MA’s is OK if it helps to advance their style or system. If they do it for purely personal gain, to the point where they train for a ring fight above all else, then they’re a detriment to their system. (Unless their system is muay thai or judo, which are only about sport competition.)

Martial arts systems that train the whole person – body, spirit, mind – should list competition as only one facet of a student’s training.

15

Sanshou is all about fighting in a ring, for competition.
Wrong. couldn’t be further from the truth. Sanshou is about fighting in reality where grappling and punching are present. Its about controling your opponent so he is out of the fight.

If you can’t get from Point A to Point B in a fighting combination, your attacks (and defenses for that matter) will be limited and most likely ineffective.

Exactly the reason why kungfu fails.

Wrong. Few judo players I’ve ever met can hit as well as they grapple.

I didn’t mean that litterally! sanshou is to kung fu as judo is to jujustu. But I’m glad you understand the gist.. which btw - sanshou guys LOVE beer!! helps numb the pain after a fight!

Honoring your ancestors is a very important tradition in kung fu. It is important but when you train in archaic manner, dress as they do, use medicine they used, etc. it has become hindering

16

i think that the ‘obsession’ comes from many people’s views that MMA is more relevant in todays world than traditional kung fu (or whatever traditional art), and in many ways, it is.

but remember that many of the ‘fans’ are the same armchair slackers who watch the WWE soap-operas and they make me sick as well. and the ignorace and unfounded arrogance of the unskilled average MMA guy who trains no harder than the casual traditional ma hobbiest but thinks he is better because thats what he has been told…well thats annoying too.

fawning over the pro fighters as an couch-potato fan is very unappealing to me (well at least those fans pay the fighters salaries)

but obsessing over the modern full-contact training aspect of it is easy to get hooked on because it requires just as holistic an approach as traditional training. its a full-time life changing type of training requiring tailoring diet, curbing bad habits such as drinking and smoking, becoming very aware if not obsessive about muscle & tendon strenghtening/stretching/condioning/recovery and general body conditioning, becoming aware of youre breathing and heart-rate on a high level, constant training and improvement of technique, adequate rest and recovery time, therapy such as dit jow, boxining linament and icing just to heal your regularly banged up body. medatation and creative visualization, etc, etc. one must train constantly and obsessively just to be able to hang with the high-level fighters in the ring/lei-tei. and this has its own rewards and transformative results.

so the training obsession i can understand & relate to and i think that it can be postitive.
the creepy couch potato mma-fighter worshippers need to get a life though.
i think there is value to both the ‘traditional’ kung fu and the modern training approach. it depends on the individual, what they want to get out of it and how they want to spend their time.

17

mmmmmmm… beer.

18

sanshou guys LOVE beer!!

LOL – OK, maybe I’ll try sanshou now :smiley:

Dressing as the ancestors did in your day-to-day life IS a little weird. Some folks wear a chinese-style coat and pants in tai chi class, and they’re real comfortable, so why not? But if they hung around their office in those outfits, that would be strange.

As far as traditional liniments and medicines, jow, acupuncture – it’s important to understand what’s at work with chinese medicines, not just “Product X will stimulate the lung meridian et al.” If one finds out the herbal ingredients in a jow or internal medicine, learns their function (in a Western sense) and learns why and how they are used, they become less archaic and much more useful. For example, one cold jow I use, an off-the-shelf product, contains menthol, camphor and cinnamon. Menthol and camphor are used in many western products for sore muscles. I also use Tiger Balm, which is another type of jow.

If you take an “ooh, it’s magic” approach to chinese medicine then that’s detrimental, because you’re setting yourself up for con artists, or even a lifetime membership to Chung Moo Doe.

I’d like to see more scientific-method-type analysis performed on many chinese medicines, but I think many ancient formulas will hold up to their claims.

19

shaolintiger … you should ease up on kung lek a little dude. he’s old now and doesn’t always know what he’s saying.

20

Competitions.

Personally, I am not that fond of them.

Don’t get me wrong I think it is good and needed that MA test their skills and learn from that experience.

I just don’t think it needs to be done in front of many people with prize moneys, trophies and so on.

As one of my Sifu liked to say “You are tested every second of your life”.

As for modern competitions like the UFC, NHB, Pride or similar, they take a real full-time commitment.
Now most MA don’t train to enter those competitions nor are interested in doing so.

IMO, competitions will not give you the same level of detailed feedback as a good sparring session.

Why, in competitions you try to win/ beat your opponent and not learn from your experience.
Thus your aim/goal differ.

I think controlled sparring session invlving multiple styles and so on are more benefitial to your skill development.
Plus, in addition you can sit down with your sparring partners and discuss what happened and share advise.

FENG ZHIQIANG

Although martial arts are about fighting, one should not think about fighting during practice. The fighting skill comes naturally after a certain time of correct practice.