[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1200520]If my opponent attacks me, he has closed in the distance for me so I don’t have to do that myself. To me, it’s a bonus, but I don’t want to be lazy and always expect my opponent to do that for me. I like to train my “mobility”. I like to train combo with fast footwork. If I can still move as fast as the following clip when I’m 80 years old, I’ll be quite happy.
As soon as you read the other guy’s intent to attack, you use your mobility and combo to steal his attack and overwhelm him.
Your attack is over before you are done thinking “attack”, and even before the other guy realizes that he himself is attacking. That’s where Praying Mantis speed lives.
[QUOTE=-N-;1200571]As soon as you read the other guy’s intent to attack, you use your mobility and combo to steal his attack and overwhelm him.
Your attack is over before you are done thinking “attack”, and even before the other guy realizes that he himself is attacking. That’s where Praying Mantis speed lives.[/QUOTE]
Agree! To be able to read your opponent’s intention is important. When you detect your opponent’s intention, you detect “leak” and move in. You can also use your fast punches to force your opponent to block your punches, you can then detect his “leak”. This is why I love the “jab, cross, hook, hook” combo (from longfistPu An Dui Da), as long as I can keep my opponent busy, I can always be able to find “leak”.
If we look at all TCMA systems, we can see a lot of styles that emphasize on “power generation”, styles such as Baji, XYLH, Chen Taiji. If you move slow and relax, you can always get a good “power generation” as showing in this clip:
We just don’t see that many styles emphasize on “speed generation”, styles such as praying mantis and Zimen.
Shifu always said strength can be matched by strength, technique can be matched by tech, but nothing can matche speed… even if u got bigger gun I draw first you die, speed =power =win
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1200520]If my opponent attacks me, he has closed in the distance for me so I don’t have to do that myself. To me, it’s a bonus, but I don’t want to be lazy and always expect my opponent to do that for me. I like to train my “mobility”. I like to train combo with fast footwork. If I can still move as fast as the following clip when I’m 80 years old, I’ll be quite happy.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1200680]Shifu always said strength can be matched by strength, technique can be matched by tech, but nothing can matche speed… even if u got bigger gun I draw first you die, speed =power =win[/QUOTE]
To a point yeah. But if you can’t hurt the guy, eventually he’ll get his licks in if you don’t bounce out.
All 4 are needed tobe an effective fighter. Stronger fighter can hit harder. Faster fighters can hit you first. Skillful fighter can out technique you. Couageous fighters are not afraid and apply the other 3 better.
Examples:
Both fighters are equal in speed, skill and courage. However one fighter is stronger. The stronger fighter will win out everytime.
If you switch speed, skill or courage the same result will happen.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1200467]
I always like to start from a groin kick, knee joint kick, or foot sweep (kicks that’s hard to be caught). Since my goal is to use kick, punch to set up my throw, any kick, punch combo that won’'t be able to help me to link to my throw will serve me no purpose. After examing all the forms that I have learned in my life time, I finally decide that I just have to create my own drills for the kick, punch, lock, throw, follow on strike integration. The day when I found out what I need, I lost interest in all my TCMA forms. It’s much easier for me to create my own drills than trying to extract drills out of the TCMA forms that I have learned.[/QUOTE]
I’ll paraphrase something my Sifu said, but basically principle transcends technique and even style. Once you understand the principle, it really doesn’t matter where the technique comes from.
For example, in mantis - there’s a lot of osoto gari type of throws. But they don’t do it the way Judo does it, they set up by first tying up the person’s arms. They do this because if you went in and tried to set it up judo style on the street by grabbing, you’ll most likely walk away with a fat lip. Then I noticed all throws / trips in mantis are set up by tying up the person’s arms. This means the principle is tie up the guys arms to throw him. It doesn’t really matter how I tie up the person’s arms, but I should tie them up to set up a throw. The forms just give me a couple of examples to work from.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1201167] how I tie up the person’s arms, …[/QUOTE]
If you just wrap your opponent’s arms, that’s not too hard to tie up your opponent’s arms. The problem is you have just given your opponent an early warning that striking game is over and the grappling game just start.
When do you want to tie up your opponent’s arms is very interesting. If you can wait until your last second to do so, you can merge control and throw as one single move instead of separate moves as grab and throw. In order to do so, you really have to do a good job on your striking and throwing integration. This will lead to “no trapping - no bridging” approach, the moment that you touch your opponent’s arm , the moment that you take your opponent down. This is much harder to do than to get into clinching first and worry about throw later approach.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1200360]The Tantui form has a lot of kicks. For a beginner to hold his leg in the air for a period of time until the teacher has corrected all students postures may be just too hard for beginners. Both Lien Bu Chuan and Gong Li Chuan doesn’t have many kicks. To hold a punching posture for 2 minutes is much easier than to hold a kicking posture for 2 minutes.[/QUOTE]
Actually, you will still learn Lien Bo and Tan Tui if you study North Shaolin that is referred to as “Bak Sil Lum”. Anyone connected to Kwong Wing Lam for instance or any of his higher or lower classmates in Bak Sil Lum still teach the system in this manner. I learned these sets from my teacher who in turn learned the style from Ma Ching Fung.
I’ve seen YJM lien Bo and it is a pretty different set from that which is in BSL. Same with the Tan Tui. It’s as if there is a departure in the 3rd or 4th road and the whole set becomes something different.
Fwiw, tan tui is a great development set no matter where on the timeline of your training. Lien Bo is a great beginners set.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1201187]When do you want to tie up your opponent’s arms is very interesting. If you can wait until your last second to do so, you can merge control and throw as one single move instead of separate moves as grab and throw. In order to do so, you really have to do a good job on your striking and throwing integration. This will lead to “no trapping - no bridging” approach, the moment that you touch your opponent’s arm , the moment that you take your opponent down. This is much harder to do than to get into clinching first and worry about throw later approach.[/QUOTE]
That’s what classical Mantis is all about, which is documented in the forms.
[QUOTE=-N-;1201194]That’s what classical Mantis is all about, which is documented in the forms.[/QUOTE]
The moment you touch, the moment you throw is very high level skill. Speed and angle to cut in play a very important role here.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1201167]I’ll paraphrase something my Sifu said, but basically principle transcends technique and even style. Once you understand the principle, it really doesn’t matter where the technique comes from.
For example, in mantis - there’s a lot of osoto gari type of throws. But they don’t do it the way Judo does it, they set up by first tying up the person’s arms. They do this because if you went in and tried to set it up judo style on the street by grabbing, you’ll most likely walk away with a fat lip. Then I noticed all throws / trips in mantis are set up by tying up the person’s arms. This means the principle is tie up the guys arms to throw him. It doesn’t really matter how I tie up the person’s arms, but I should tie them up to set up a throw. The forms just give me a couple of examples to work from.[/QUOTE]
I think once you get to that point that YouKnowWho is describing where he lost interest in forms and started working his own combinations is that point where you start to dabble in the mastery of TCMA. Adding that to my Sifu’s explanation that principle transcends technique / style etc - I think that’s the point where No Style is the rule because you can and will borrow from all styles and use what’s natural for you.
In combat when you stand face to face with your opponent, the “front cut (osoto gari)” may be the most nature way to take your opponent down. You use your hands to do your hand’s job and use your leg to do your leg job, which is different from the wrestling single leg or double legs that you use your hand to do your leg job.
It follows the kick low, and punch high principle. The form creator may assumed that his opponent dropped down leading arm to block the kick. He then punches at the exposed face. What if his opponent raises his leg to block the kick. Since his opponent’s arms may still be on guard. He should add a left hand move to open his opponent’s guard before he can punch at the face.
Will most teachers explain both cases during form application? What if the teacher only cover the 1st case? When will his student learn the 2nd case situation? Wait for another form that cover that situation?
If you teach how to use a groin kick to set up a face punch, you will cover all cases. You don’t have to be restricted by a form that someone created long time ago.
It follows the kick low, and punch high principle. The form creator may assumed that his opponent dropped down leading arm to block the kick. He then punches at the exposed face. What if his opponent raises his leg to block the kick. Since his opponent’s arms may still be on guard. He should add a left hand move to open his opponent’s guard before he can punch at the face.
Will most teachers explain both cases during form application? What if the teacher only cover the 1st case? When will his student learn the 2nd case situation? Wait for another form that cover that situation?
If you teach how to use a groin kick to set up a face punch, you will cover all cases. You don’t have to be restricted by a form that someone created long time ago.[/QUOTE]
I think you have too much expectations from forms. Don’t you think trying to fit everything in forms is unnecessary? Forms have never been the ultimate goal in TCMA as far as I know. They are just for teaching the students how to move their bodies and I think they are very efficient instruments for that purpose. Probably single moves are like learning the alphabet, forms/combinations are like making words and partner drills are like learning to make example sentences. When you learn a language you also follow that order but it’s unnecessary and impossible to learn all the possible sentences that can be made with the whole vocabulary of the language because after doing the basic training you can go out and start communicating with people. There you will face a lot of new situations that were not in your books but if you have a good foundation you will learn to make your own sentences as you communicate with people.
My experience is very limited and I don’t know how it works in other styles but in Xinyi the combat training starts in sparring or doing drills with the teacher and in them the teacher can teach lots of variations in the moves as well as changing between them but in order to learn anything out of it that way the student needs to have internalized body movements in doing empty hand moves. A student who has a good jibengong will learn everything quickly but a student who hasn’t done the jibengong and wants to jump into combat training will stand there like a zombie unless he has a natural talent but leaving everything to talent is inefficient for most people.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1203221]I think you have too much expectations from forms. Don’t you think trying to fit everything in forms is unnecessary? Forms have never been the ultimate goal in TCMA as far as I know. They are just for teaching the students how to move their bodies and I think they are very efficient instruments for that purpose. [/QUOTE]
Or so we “say” but don’t “do”. YKW posted on another thread with a link to a style I had never heard of, so I googled it to see some video. Lo and behold you can find a sh*t ton of forms, but no real applications. Sadly I see this too often. You do a search for kung fu stuff, you find forms, a lot of forms, and cooperative “applications”, and when you do find sparring type of stuff, a lot of it isn’t good. YKW is voicing his position and it comes from a legitimate TCMA background. If he’s saying there’s a problem, people need to stop arguing so much and ask why he’s seeing one. Actually he’s been doing a good job talking in detail from a perspective based on a lifetime of experience.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1203224]Or so we “say” but don’t “do”. YKW posted on another thread with a link to a style I had never heard of, so I googled it to see some video. Lo and behold you can find a sh*t ton of forms, but no real applications. Sadly I see this too often. You do a search for kung fu stuff, you find forms, a lot of forms, and cooperative “applications”, and when you do find sparring type of stuff, a lot of it isn’t good. YKW is voicing his position and it comes from a legitimate TCMA background. If he’s saying there’s a problem, people need to stop arguing so much and ask why he’s seeing one. Actually he’s been doing a good job talking in detail from a perspective based on a lifetime of experience.[/QUOTE]
Everyone who wants to learn good TCMA that can turn you into a fighter knows that there is something very very wrong with the current situation but I believe the order of doing things in TCMA is not wrong. The problem is that due to unnecessary secrecy and/or laziness most of the people who call themselves teachers haven’t done the combat training properly.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1203227]Everyone who wants to learn good TCMA that can turn you into a fighter knows that there is something very very wrong with the current situation but I believe the order of doing things in TCMA is not wrong. The problem is that due to unnecessary secrecy and/or laziness most of the people who call themselves teachers haven’t done the combat training properly.[/QUOTE]
and this is part of the point and philosophy that YKW and others have been pushing. I agree with them on some points and disagree on others.
Personally I have a love/hate relationship with forms. I view them in different lights depending on my mood or if I’ve had what I consider a personal breakthrough regarding them.
I think ultimately forms were a way for a teacher to try and preserve some aspect of themselves and incorporate it into the art. It was probably a favorite combination or theory which they and others built on. As a whole, we probably take them too literally. I do believe that you should learn all the forms of a given style in order to claim to be a master of that style because you should show respect to those who came before you in that style. So for that reason alone I’ll personally never be a TCMA master. I’d rather spend time on a few forms that appeal to me, do “internal” conditioning with gungs, cross train, and then spar with everybody I meet to see if I can make any of the principles work. It’s no longer fun for me to practice without some type of randori, rolling or sparring. When I get old, it’ll still be randori, but I’ll probably replace striking with push hands or chi sao. (note to self, learn enough wing chun to get to the chi sao drilling stage so I can do it when I’m old).
[QUOTE=MightyB;1203229]
I think ultimately forms were a way for a teacher to try and preserve some aspect of themselves and incorporate it into the art. It was probably a favorite combination or theory which they and others built on. As a whole, we probably take them too literally. I do believe that you should learn all the forms of a given style in order to claim to be a master of that style because you should show respect to those who came before you in that style. So for that reason alone I’ll personally never be a TCMA master. [/I][/QUOTE]
In Xinyi we don’t have forms except for a short combination called siba but there are many moves and countless combinations that anyone can make for himself (as long as they are not too unrealistic) but no one will master all the moves equally as they are meant for different types of bodies. A legitimate teacher would need to learn them all to be able to teach them to different types of students but for becoming a fighter there is a limited number that one needs to master in sparring. It’s a pity that this art is also gradually moving towards becoming a performance art like the others.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1203239]In Xinyi we don’t have forms except for a short combination called siba but there are many moves and countless combinations that anyone can make for himself.[/QUOTE]
XingYi master (Liu Er Biao Zi) created one short form for his own practicing. Since the form was too short, he repeated the sequence twice to make it longer. He taught to my teacher as personal training tool but my teacher passed it down anyway. It’s called Xing Jin Quan.
Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), people of hejian, Hebei Province House. At the age of 8 from Liu Xiaolan learned bajiquan, 14 years old from the famous Boxing Boxing Guo Yun deep acquisition, and later teacher Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two pointing. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor Good Fight, good practice the martial arts, people are “Liu Erbiao”. Representatives of modern boxing art experiment one. Horse Hall of martial arts teacher