At 44 seconds, this is very close to what I was thinking accept that the lead arm is trapped in toward your opponents centerline making it hard for him to come with the left hand and he’s also not able to face you without giving his back or making his arm position even worse by turning in to it.
yes this is done with the same bridgeing tech (side block mantis), and it can be done from underneath as well. as seen in the vid
I love that push tho. I would like to see all the ways to trap and enter for that push.
its combinations are endless
I’m less concerned with after the shoulder strike. I am pretty well versed in takedowns, I can see a ton of options there if you keep driving in rather than letting him bump off of you.
yes depends on what ou want to do adn the end result your looking for.
Do you use your lead arm to push more, or backslap? Or is it just to get him off balance?
again depends on your goal or where you want o him to be, you can push him away you can hook the head from underneath for a throw over your shoulder. disturb his center, you can take down etc etc.
Do you use that as an end, or do you just stop there to train that specific drill and not worry about the after until you get that part down?
this is just 1 drill we pratcie over and over however when fighting you never ever stop your attack or forward motion until they are locked, broken, KO 'd bloody dead or they run, they are laying down not wanting to get up and fight.
Also I have seen one where the hips are more square and only turn in after contact. Has that whole deflection force working for you. Sort of like when you check a front kick and push off to unbalance your opp. I love those kinds of deflections. They work really well for me when I’m on the outside of the arms working towards the center line.
Gets em all tied up in their own limbs.
correct though thats a differnt type of Jing, thts Na twisting
[QUOTE=Syn7;1198427]Do you use your lead arm to push more, or backslap? [/QUOTE]
You can use your shoulder to strike either below or above your opponent’s arm. You can also throw your opponent either straight back or 90 degree sideway. When you throw your opponent 90 degree sideway, that’s the time to use your upper arm or forearm.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198566]All technique should go through the following 4 stages:
“develop” by partner training.
“test” by sparring/wrestling.
“enhance” by equipment training (such as heavy bag).
“polish” by solo drill.
where 1 > 2 > 3 > 4
You are right that equipment training > solo drill.[/QUOTE]
I agree. This is common sense. However…
It is delivered in different order to beginners, especially in Kung Fu schools here in North America. Where is typically delivered in the format of 4>1>3>2
I think it is the fascination with forms and the commercialization of martial arts in general as something the greater public felt they could purchase. Bonafide martial arts of all varieties were NEVER founded or inspired in the atmosphere of learning at club with others.
All the most useful and effective martial arts are derivative of what has worked and that can have a variety of ways to be trained. Including those used in sport and in real life violent confrontations.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1198599]It is delivered in different order to beginners, especially in Kung Fu schools here in North America. Where is typically delivered in the format of 4>1>3>2.[/QUOTE]
So your approach is solo drills > partner drills > equipment training > sparring/wrestling
Without sparring/wrestling, you won’t know whether you will like to use certain technique or not. For example, you can use
sikp in side kick with your front leg.
turn your body and side kick with your back leg.
If both techniques are in your form, in your approach, you will start with solo drills, partner training, equipment training, and then do the final testing. Since the testing stage will take quite some time, you may find out that you just don’t like to turn your body and side kick with your back leg. When you have found that out, you have already spent quit sometime in solo drill, partner drill, and equipment training. You can spend the same time on your skip in side kick with your front leg instead.
Will it be better to test your technique and make sure that technique is what you like to use before you spend more training time to “enhance” and “polish” it? There are so many techniques that we have trained in our life that we have not used it in sparring/wrestling. The chance that we will use it in the future may also be unlikely.
If we can identify those techniques through sparring/wrestling as early as possible then we can invest our valuable training time in the right set of techniques.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1198599]I think it is the fascination with forms and the commercialization of martial arts in general as something the greater public felt they could purchase. Bonafide martial arts of all varieties were NEVER founded or inspired in the atmosphere of learning at club with others.[/QUOTE]
My teacher, in his later years, had less emphasis on forms.
And he always did tell us that just knowing a form is of no use.
He wanted us to drill the applications that he showed us from the forms until we were able to use them against each other without problem or hesitation. He lectured us on this constantly.
He often taught applications without teaching the form it came from until many years later. By then he would teach the form and tell us, “You already know this.”
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198614]If we can identify those techniques through sparring/wrestling as early as possible then we can inverst our valuable training time in the right set of techniques.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=-N-;1198615]He often taught applications without teaching the form it came from until many years later. By then he would teach the form and tell us, “You already know this.”[/QUOTE]
Partner drills without partner are solo drills.
To link your solo drills, you will get forms.
The following clip is just to connect many solo drills in random sequence. Can anyone be able to tell it’s not TCMA form?
[QUOTE=-N-;1198628]What if you do not connect in random.
Aren’t some movements the natural followups to others?
Or some sequences are higher percentage than others?[/QUOTE]
1st you connect single moves into combo. You then connect combos into form. It’s 2 steps process.
Step 1 - to challenge your understanding of natural followups.
Step 2 - to challenge the ability to smoothly connect 2 non-relative moves (this part is for teaching and learning only).
Let’s take 3 combos as example.
Combo 1 - A, B, C
Combo 2 - D, E
Combo 3 - F, G, H, I,
If you can link combo 1, combo 2, combo 3 as a sequence that move C can set up move D, and move E can set up move F, you will have 9 moves combo. That will be the best form design. If move C is a “firemen’s carry” that the moment you pick your opponent over your head, you won’t need it to set up any other move, the sequence terminate right there. Whether you want your “firemen’s carry” to connect to move D or to move F, it won’t make any difference as long as the connection is smooth.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198636]If move C is a “firemen’s carry” that the moment you pick your opponent over your headu, you won’t need it to set up any other move, the sequence terminate right there. Whether you want your “firemen’s carry” to connect to move D or to move F, it won’t make any difference as long as the connection is smooth.[/QUOTE]
You see that in traditional forms. Some motions are intermediary in a sequence. Other motions might be shown as finishing moves.
After a finishing move the form might change direction of the line and start a new sequence.
A form might show a variety of ways to lead into a particular finishing move.
Or the form might imply a reasonable escape from the finishing move. Then the next series begins with a likely position after the escape.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1198453]yes this is done with the same bridgeing tech (side block mantis), and it can be done from underneath as well. as seen in the vid
its combinations are endless
yes depends on what ou want to do adn the end result your looking for.
again depends on your goal or where you want o him to be, you can push him away you can hook the head from underneath for a throw over your shoulder. disturb his center, you can take down etc etc.
this is just 1 drill we pratcie over and over however when fighting you never ever stop your attack or forward motion until they are locked, broken, KO 'd bloody dead or they run, they are laying down not wanting to get up and fight.
correct though thats a differnt type of Jing, thts Na twisting[/QUOTE]
Sweet. Thanx. If you find yourself with a partner, a camera and some extra time maybe you could run thru some of the variations. In particular the bridging before the second entry. I can figure some of it out by reading a description. But videos make it much more clear. I just like the concept and how that deflection really has alot of power without sacrificing control.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198316]No style means you start with application. You learn
groin kick, face punch because it’s effective combo in combat, it’s not because that combo exist in your form.
hip throw because it’s the mother of all throws, it’s not because there is a body bending move in your form that look like hip throw.
You go to school. Your teacher teaches you
10 moves form. He then explains application for all those 10 moves.
10 applications. You then link those 10 moves into a logical sequence yourself.
The end result of these 2 approaches may be the same but the starting points are different. The major difference here is by using the 1st approach, your learning material is restricted by your forms. By using the 2nd approach, your learning material will have no limitation.[/QUOTE]
Is it perhaps possible that we started out with application.
And then we wanted to practice application in a ‘safe way’ so we found a partner and did ‘some’ but not ‘all’ of the application, so we could continue to train safely without hurting each other.
And then our partner decided he didn’t want to train anymore, or had to work that week, or had a baby and had no energy or or or - so we took what we were doing with him, and just started practising in the air, by ourselves.
And then someone saw that and said - “hey - looks good. I want to learn too”.
And then one day he left and started showing other people what he’d learned.
And over time, after many many generations of showing people what other people had learned, we forgot what the original applications were?
Maybe application came before anyone ever even thought of ‘forms’.?
[QUOTE=jimbob;1198651]And over time, after many many generations of showing people what other people had learned, we forgot what the original applications were?[/QUOTE]
Who forgot?
[QUOTE=jimbob;1198651]
Maybe application came before anyone ever even thought of ‘forms’.?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198614]So your approach is solo drills > partner drills > equipment training > sparring/wrestling
[/QUOTE]
Nope that is not my approach. But it is the observed approach of a great many schools in how they start beginners.
I firmly believe that form follows function. Therefore, partner drills and conditioning+equipment training takes precedence, Sparring is less frequent due to age and ability to find people who know how to spar etc.
I kind of laugh at the idea that partners to train with are easy to come by, they aren’t. In a school with a fixed curriculum, you can get better access but in a school that doesn’t spar, it is still hard to find partners. If you train on your own and don’t go to a school anymore, it becomes even more challenging.
Anyway, it’s not easy finding a good partner for martial arts. It took me a long time before I found the small group of guys that I train with all too infrequently and one guy who I train with regularly.
Everyone. It’s only natural. Imagine if you will, you’re sitting back to back with someone, who is describing a picture to you, and you’re trying to draw that picture. You work hard, you do the best you can…and then you do the same with your picture and someone else…and then the next person does the same, and the next and the next…we wind up with a picture that may have very little to do with what was originally there. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t carefully drawn, just that we don’t have contact with what was originally there.
All I’m saying is, I’d be happy to accept this as a possibility - the application was what was originally there and perhaps all there was. Then we decided to practise. As David says - finding someone to practice with isn’t easy - so we develop ways to practise alone as best we can. This gets transmitted to others. It doesn’t take that many degrees of separation to lose all sense of meaning in what you’re doing.
Then you get people trying to reverse engineer stuff or retro-fit forms to function, when perhaps they don’t have any way of knowing what the original function was.
[QUOTE=jimbob;1198706]Everyone. It’s only natural. Imagine if you will, you’re sitting back to back with someone, who is describing a picture to you, and you’re trying to draw that picture. You work hard, you do the best you can…and then you do the same with your picture and someone else…and then the next person does the same, and the next and the next…we wind up with a picture that may have very little to do with what was originally there. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t carefully drawn, just that we don’t have contact with what was originally there.
All I’m saying is, I’d be happy to accept this as a possibility - the application was what was originally there and perhaps all there was. Then we decided to practise. As David says - finding someone to practice with isn’t easy - so we develop ways to practise alone as best we can. This gets transmitted to others. It doesn’t take that many degrees of separation to lose all sense of meaning in what you’re doing.
Then you get people trying to reverse engineer stuff or retro-fit forms to function, when perhaps they don’t have any way of knowing what the original function was.[/QUOTE]
This is all true and that is why its so important to practice apps with a partner…but, as far as “reverse engineering” forms, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I always liked it when a teacher asked a student what do you think that application is. If they come up with something practical then train it and make it work. It gets them to think for themselves on how to apply the art.
We all know there can be several applications for any given move in a form..some may work better for you than others…Certainly a lot of apps are hidden and need to be explained, but a lot of stuff can be discerned just by looking at it and two people can come up with two different apps as their first choice. The apps you recognizance on your own may work naturally for you.
If you are a teacher and you have learned 20 forms in your lifetime. You can
teach those 20 forms to your students the same way as you had learned.
remove redundency and combine your 20 forms into 1 form and teach your students that 1 form.
take 50 combos out of your 20 forms and teach your student those 50 combos. You then allow your students to link those 50 combos into as many forms (or just 1 form) as they like.
I’ve never been taught a form without being taught the function. (often in an extremely painful demonstration) It was followed by a half hour humorous anecdotal account of when he used this particular technique in the war (or the prison, whichever it may be). I couldn’t get him to shut up. Maybe I just had different kind of teachers. It may have taken a year to learn a single form with a whole lot of tea consumption in between but not knowing the function was never my problem.
Even if your teacher isn’t very talkative, how hard is it to ask, “How do you use this?”
