I can’t say I am surprised as the curriculum changed a few times while I was still with the organization.
I think it is important not to get too hung up on different techniques as there are so many variables in each situation to make the proper response different each time.
In any event, I am glad that we can discuss things like adults and even if we disagree on things can still respect one anothers viewpoints.
Again I wish you well in your training. I left the organization but still have many within it that I consider friends. Of course, some won’t be seen with me in public Hmm considerig my looks I even have trouble getting my wife to be seen with me. (One reason I did not post a picture is I tried and broke the camera ) LOL
[QUOTE=WT;47859]What You see in the Hong Kong movies is stage combat performed by actors and stuntmen.
Not much do do with the real thing.
Use a punch to stop a roundhouse,not a tan sao.
William Cheung’s footwork didn’t save him
against Emin Boztepe.[/QUOTE]
I’m not from either camp, but, that video doesn’t make either look good. But how would footwork save you when someone walks up behind you and hits you? Not meant to start any arguements.
Its been more than 2 decades since William Cheung first mentioned modified wing chun.
Its been more than 1 decade since this thread started.
Regarding modified wing chun, black flag wing chun is reported by the VTM as wing chun but then Sifu Sergio presented evidence from Indonesia debunking black flag wing chun. He recorded a video of the same grandmaster the VTM interviewed but now he admits it was all made up in America. We should focus on wing chun from China, not south east Asia where it was easily debunked.
See vtmshaolinbull5hit.blogspot.com
[QUOTE=Jeung;1165822]Its been more than 2 decades since William Cheung first mentioned modified wing chun.
Its been more than 1 decade since this thread started.
Regarding modified wing chun, black flag wing chun is reported by the VTM as wing chun but then Sifu Sergio presented evidence from Indonesia debunking black flag wing chun. He recorded a video of the same grandmaster the VTM interviewed but now he admits it was all made up in America. We should focus on wing chun from China, not south east Asia where it was easily debunked.
See vtmshaolinbull5hit.blogspot.com[/QUOTE]
Jeung , is ’ nt there 2 - types of modified wing chun ? One has to do with Sifu Cheung and Sifu Leung ting ? And the late bruce lee ?
Now you mentioned black flag wing chun ? I saw the youtube video ,as you said in your thread , Is the black flag wing chun is the system without any history ? Because only now I ’ ve heard about black flag wing chun , because I ’ ve never heard about it before . So you ’ re saying the the black flag wing chun is BS .
Now the China Wing Chun , is that with Ip Man ? If I ’ m not mistaken reading from this thread about WC , mostly everybody is learning from instructors who learned from GM Ip Man himself or Sigungs of the late GM Ip Man . Very few people are learning WC system of different lineages .
So Jeung this website everythingwingchun.com does it have information on wing chun from china ? Or is it the Ip Man lineage ? Because I remember we ’ ve had this WC controversy from before it ’ s probably as old as bruce lee since he passes away .
hi Lance, what I know about modified wing chun is it was first defined by William Chueng. According to William, he learned both Traditional Wing Chun and modified Wing Chun from Ip Man. William said he was the only one taught Traditional Wing Chun. The two versions of Wing Chun Ip Man taught is sourced from China, thats what I’m talking about.
How is black flag connected to modified wing chun? According to evidence on black flags multiple history and background, black flag is madeup from Kwee King Yang’s Kung fu which is a mixture of 5 Ancestors & 18 Lohan hand plus Vikoga Wing Chun plus Hung Fa Yi theory. Vikoga Wing Chun is Victor Leow’s creation which is made up of many different branchs of Ip Man’s modified wing chun. Chung Che Man is a student of Victor and teacher of black flag wing chun Kenneth Lin Xiang Fuk. Do you see the connection to modified wing chun? According to Vikoga Wing Chun family tree, David Peterson is one of Kenneth Lin Xiang Fuk’s Sigung. If you review these two videos below, you will see the evidences that black flag wing chun is made up. I hope Wing Chun sites such as everythingwingchun.com know what back ground black flag comes from. There is aaalot of information in the videos. Lance, you can judge for yourself but I see them constantly changing there names and history to this day.:eek:
HKB (Black Flag) Eng Chun Xiang Fuk Lin’s multiple identities, multiple background
part1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQQN1MX5xB8
part2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqiALIyNMk
There is only one modification in wing chun that I hold as significant beyond all others and that is the issue of shifting (pien sun) or not shifting. The core of VT is the spine, upright centre. All other structure references are measured from there. The VT of oldest world do not seem to engage in shifting. Once VT reached the boats an unique challenge was faced. The opera boats and docks were unique places for battle. Restricted footwork meant a modification in VT structure to accommodate the tight environs. Thus, shifting. Every rule of VT must be ‘modified’ if VT is to work in ‘shifted’ mode. Different solutions, different structure, different rule of elbow. Then a second period of extreme environment further influenced the mix. The roof tops of Hong Kong. In Ip Man lineages this issue seems to be close to the centre. With nearly every house at odds with others on the point) IMHO this is what ‘modified’ VT is. Technologically anyway.
[QUOTE=Jeung;1166245]hi Lance, what I know about modified wing chun is it was first defined by William Chueng. According to William, he learned both Traditional Wing Chun and modified Wing Chun from Ip Man. William said he was the only one taught Traditional Wing Chun. The two versions of Wing Chun Ip Man taught is sourced from China, thats what I’m talking about.
How is black flag connected to modified wing chun? According to evidence on black flags multiple history and background, black flag is madeup from Kwee King Yang’s Kung fu which is a mixture of 5 Ancestors & 18 Lohan hand plus Vikoga Wing Chun plus Hung Fa Yi theory. Vikoga Wing Chun is Victor Leow’s creation which is made up of many different branchs of Ip Man’s modified wing chun. Chung Che Man is a student of Victor and teacher of black flag wing chun Kenneth Lin Xiang Fuk. Do you see the connection to modified wing chun? According to Vikoga Wing Chun family tree, David Peterson is one of Kenneth Lin Xiang Fuk’s Sigung. If you review these two videos below, you will see the evidences that black flag wing chun is made up. I hope Wing Chun sites such as everythingwingchun.com know what back ground black flag comes from. There is aaalot of information in the videos. Lance, you can judge for yourself but I see them constantly changing there names and history to this day.:eek:
HKB (Black Flag) Eng Chun Xiang Fuk Lin’s multiple identities, multiple background
part1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQQN1MX5xB8
part2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqiALIyNMk[/QUOTE]
Jeung Hello , Thanks alot for this very interesting information about modified WC , you ’ re right about Sifu Cheung learning 2 - versions of WC the modified and the traditional version . Is that the reason why Cheungs’ chum kiu form is different from the other WC sifus’ form . Example Wong Shun Leung ’ s chum kiu has the twisting of the waist . GM Cheung ’ s chum kiu does ’ nt have the twisting of the body . Could that be the modified WC chum kiu set ? I thought that he modified it to make it his way . But now that your thread mentioned it , it ’ s probably the modified WC chum kiu .
And the 5 - ancestors fist style , speaking of this style , I just happened to get a DVD instructional version on this style . It looks like karate , and the 18 lohans according to that Sifu Sergio is really WC , but the ? is , is it modified or traditional WC ? Jeung just how many different branches are there in modified WC ?
And Sifu David Peterson was he still teaching kenneth lin while teaching under the late Sifu Wong Shun Leung ? Jeung , you also mentioned the china WC is that the traditional one that GM Ip Man taught to GM Cheung , Sifu Wong Shun Leung ,
Lok Yiu , Leung Sheung , Ho Kam Ming and the list of names goes on and on . Or is that the modified one .
There is only one ‘modified’ VT That which was born of ‘special needs’ which were the docks and boats of the opera. Shifting stance, deep turning ( hip and waist. Still aligned) all ‘modified’ to adapt to the new environs
Every style of WC is “modified” and when people finally understand that then maybe, just maybe, the silliness of WC politics and “lineage wars” will die the death they so deserve.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1166483]Every style of WC is “modified” and when people finally understand that then maybe, just maybe, the silliness of WC politics and “lineage wars” will die the death they so deserve.[/QUOTE]
The problem is what the term modified has come to mean. Some body, somewhere said modified meant ‘inferior’ or ‘watered down’ etc. This is the lie. That’s where the male, female concepts spawned from. Integrating the two polarities of VT is the trick
[QUOTE=lance;1166283]Jeung Hello , Thanks alot for this very interesting information about modified WC , you ’ re right about Sifu Cheung learning 2 - versions of WC the modified and the traditional version . Is that the reason why Cheungs’ chum kiu form is different from the other WC sifus’ form . Example Wong Shun Leung ’ s chum kiu has the twisting of the waist . GM Cheung ’ s chum kiu does ’ nt have the twisting of the body . Could that be the modified WC chum kiu set ? I thought that he modified it to make it his way . But now that your thread mentioned it , it ’ s probably the modified WC chum kiu .
And the 5 - ancestors fist style , speaking of this style , I just happened to get a DVD instructional version on this style . It looks like karate , and the 18 lohans according to that Sifu Sergio is really WC , but the ? is , is it modified or traditional WC ? Jeung just how many different branches are there in modified WC ?
And Sifu David Peterson was he still teaching kenneth lin while teaching under the late Sifu Wong Shun Leung ? Jeung , you also mentioned the china WC is that the traditional one that GM Ip Man taught to GM Cheung , Sifu Wong Shun Leung ,
Lok Yiu , Leung Sheung , Ho Kam Ming and the list of names goes on and on . Or is that the modified one .
Jeung PM me .[/QUOTE]
Hey Lance, sorry for the delay. thanks for the information.
Back to traditional and modified wing chun as William Cheung defined it. Actually
in the Traditional Wing Chun family tree, it was Dr. Leung Jan who divided Wing
Chun into modified Wing Chun and Traditional Wing Chun or TWC. There is a lot
of Wing Chun that traces back to Dr Leung Jan today, including people on this
forum. I think you will find answers to your questions that arose from William’s
definition of traditional and modified Wing Chun from the TWC family tree. http://wingchunkwoon.com/tree.asp
Now look at Vikoga Wing Chun family tree, Victor Leow created it as its outlined.
He captured different modified Wing Chun from most of all Ip Man’s students.
Kenneth Lin did not learn from David Peterson, he learned from Anthony Chung
Che Man in Indonesia. This is Lin’s lineage to David Peterson.
David Peterson > Victor Leow > Anthony Chung Che Man > Kenneth Lin. So really
black flag wing chun is 6th generation Ip Man Wing Chun.
Every style of WC is “modified” and when people finally understand that then maybe, just maybe, the silliness of WC politics and “lineage wars” will die the death they so deserve.
Since William Cheung has something to contribute to wing chun community, why worry so much about the term modified or traditional? Maybe it’s more important to give some appriciation to someone who dares to share, to promote, to preserve the art of wing chun.
And Sifu David Peterson was he still teaching kenneth lin while teaching under the late Sifu Wong Shun Leung ?
The only problem I’ve ever had with the term ‘modified’ is that sifu William Cheung always tries to say this family of VT is ‘inferior’ to traditional VT. In fact, he basically says it was created to be ‘inferior’ and ‘easier’ than the other. I don’t see that at all. Modifications are adaptations to change. If seen in this light the old and the new really work together and operate side by side. Male female.
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1166949]The only problem I ever had with the term ‘modified’ was that sifu William Cheung always tries to say this family of VT is ‘inferior’ to traditional VT. In fact, he basically says it was created to be ‘inferior’ and ‘easier’ than the other. I don’t see that at all. Modifications are adaptations to changes. If seen in this light the old and the new really work together and operate side by side. Male female.[/QUOTE]
IMO this is a major malady of WCK that i don’t see in other arts. “I have TH3 R3@L WCK”.
When I hear things like that I can always hear Eminem in the background - “Will the real Slim Shady please stand up, please stand up, please stand up”
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1166958]IMO this is a major malady of WCK that i don’t see in other arts. “I have TH3 R3@L WCK”.
When I hear things like that I can always hear Eminem in the background - “Will the real Slim Shady please stand up, please stand up, please stand up”[/QUOTE]
Dunno, my son did some karate for about 1 year and they had the same mentality there.
It looks to me like those that fight and test there stuff against other arts, dont really put so much emphasis on lineage and other marketing ploys as those that spend their time doing forms and other drills only.
Even inside specific lineages you see difference in attitude. When I started WT my teacher was very specific about not listening to all the marketing bs and just go test against others to see if what he taught me was any good
Actually one of the reasons I wouldnt hesitate directing people to the scandinavian branch even though I myself switched to train under sifu Wan Kam Leung.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1166958]IMO this is a major malady of WCK that i don’t see in other arts. “I have TH3 R3@L WCK”.
When I hear things like that I can always hear Eminem in the background - “Will the real Slim Shady please stand up, please stand up, please stand up”[/QUOTE]
Ha ha, nice:)
[QUOTE=Jeung;1166888]Back to traditional and modified wing chun as William Cheung defined it. Actually in the Traditional Wing Chun family tree, it was Dr. Leung Jan who divided Wing Chun into modified Wing Chun and Traditional Wing Chun or TWC. There is a lot of Wing Chun that traces back to Dr Leung Jan today, including people on this forum. I think you will find answers to your questions that arose from William’s definition of traditional and modified Wing Chun from the TWC family tree.[/QUOTE]
It was very interesting to see how Sifu Cheung divides the tree into such Traditional/Modern categories but I find the whole division pretty silly to be honest (especially when it is indicated that my Sigung learnt from Yuen Kay Shan!!) You see, Traditional for me is what Ng Jung So stood for from my research. And if you have no cultural practise, you have no tradition. End of. That actually means your school will have a Flag/Banner and you will also have the knowledge of using it
Then there is the modern argument, or modified, and this is where I agree with Sanjuro! At every step of our history Wing Chun has changed to become the character and personality of whoever it is that learnt and passed it on. This is what I refer to as the ‘style’ of Wing Chun. I find Sifus that teach tech after tech are like this, mimiking their own Sifu and using experience to teach, so they can literally be indentified by their first few moves of SLT.
The ‘system’ of Wing Chun imho has still not been revealed in it’s entirety but efforts have been made to share the ‘language’ of our ancestors at least with the publication of Kuen Kuit and Martial Literature etc I also regard Fung Family stuff as Modern, in the same manner I see everything Ip Man done in HK as Modern. These are personal ‘styles’ or expressions of an older system.
The thing is, it all flows from the exact same methods and until a complete and understandable construct of that is agreed by all the Masters/Sifus out there today we will forever be dealing with a progressive Art. Something that will change from generation to generation. We see it today in every student of Ip Man. And I personally see it in every student of my own Sigung Lee Shing.
That too is not always a bad thing as long as the System is still in place. It’s just getting to grips with exactly what that is. Just my thoughts.
The term ‘modified’ as expressed in the bad old days seems to revolve around three central issues ; shifting, body turning and footwork. IMO these are all adaptations born of specific environmental concerns and super tight quarters found on the docks and boats during the ‘Opera’ period. I mean even 'Traditional VT is evolving or ‘modifying’ or is it not? It seems more or less one VT went on the boat, two or more came off. What makes Ip Man VT so curious is a seeming, phasic integration of these with varying degrees of success. Like a puzzle meant to be worked out with all the clues right in plain sight.
Hmm considerig my looks I even have trouble getting my wife to be seen with me. (One reason I did not post a picture is I tried and broke the camera 
