"Modified" Wing chun: Does it work on the street?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Did I say anything about jabs or bobbing and weaving? No, I said that if you look at a western boxer and the way he generates power (from the toe all the way up his leg to his waist and shoulder to his elbow and fist) you will see that at the moment of impact, he is rooted. Just like a Wing Chun strike. I never said anything about Western Boxing TACTICS… I was specifically referring to WC punches. And if you cannot find all the same types of strikes in WC as any other art including western boxing… I am sorry you do not see it. Now to say that what I am learning is “modified” or “traditional” doesn’t matter. As Jojitsu stated, Wing Chun by its very nature is always evolving and is a highly personal art… what works for me will not always work for you.

Also, if you study Wing Chun… do you not have hooks or uppercuts or even jabs? Just wondering…

42

MoQ,

Just as a point of order, some lineages of wing chun don’t teach The Forms™ at all, so your litmus test might falter a bit on that point.

After Leung Jan retired to Gulao, he didn’t teach from the forms, and he certainly would have been a worthwhile person to learn from.

Peace.
Reverend Tim

43

Well, you both missed my point. Anyway, there ain’t no Leung Jan’s around NOW and I don’t believe that story anyway. I simply said…oh well, you KNOW what I said, just didn’t choose to hear it.

Western Boxing has no connection with TradWC in terms of power generation so what you descibe is not WC. All this stuff has been added recently, by Americans or by way of western influence no doubt, denoting a lack of deep understanding of the principles. Jab and hook? C’mon…

44

MoQ,

I don’t know anything about boxing strikes and wing chun, so I can’t really speak to that, but I promise you that quite legitimate branches exist that don’t teach the “standard” forms.

What do you think of the various branches that teach more or different forms than the “usual” (Yip Man) six?

Peace.
Reverend Tim

45

>All these ideas are okay, except that they seem to be acted from the >inside and a WC man doesn’t really want to be there. The angulation in >WC is the way it’s all done and there’s no “toe-to-toe” facing of the
>opponent.

Biu Ji form…That is where the toe-toe comes in..
Also, why don’t you want to fight inside?
If my oponent likes the inside, I will fight outside…
If he likes outside…guess where I’ll be?
If he doesn’t know the ground… guess where I will take him… and if he’s Royce.. you bet I will try to stay on my feet…
One thing that most people didn’t learn about BJJ is that if you take someone out of their element, they can’t fight worth crapola… See why now everyone is trying to be an all around fighter? So inside, outside, ground our standup… be where your oponent is weakest…

>The gung fu forms are just “forms” and they must be
>broken up for action. I would suggest doubts about any
>teacher that doesn’t teach from the forms just like I
>would caution against one accepting candy without a
>wrapper.

As rev tim said… many WC people do not do forms…
Also the forms are just the alphabet..
not the whole art. They just teach you the letters… during a fight, that’s when you form the words and sentences… not during a form. You are limiting Wing Chun by saying… a taun sau is only applied to this or this situation…
WC is about concepts… and how you apply those concepts.

>Certain adaptations or modifications are almost
>expected but by modification I don’t mean changing the
>“way” it’s done or altering the “type of movement”. WC was
>devised to be an art that could be applied with
>flexibility from a conceptual perspective.

As long as you stay within the concepts & Laws of Wing Chun you are doing Wing Chun.

>With that in mind, do NOT punch like a western boxer. The
>power generation is entirely different.
>Do NOT jab and cross, bob and weave or any of that
>stuff. There is no need to add any tech that doesn’t follow the
>principles of the Art. If you mix WC with other styles
>before you know the System, or if you make extreme
>alterations to the core principles… please don’t call it Wing
>Chun Kung Fu. Have some respect.

We Jab. A jab is just a quick punch. we have a cross in Chum Kil form. The uppercut is even in the first form Sil Lim Tau.
Bob & weave in called Ton & tow in chinese. We have that in Bui Ji. All these things are in all of our forms. If you know the forms you will see all of these things.

Then again maybe I’m seeing things eh? heheheh damn drugs!!! :stuck_out_tongue:

[This message has been edited by Buhma (edited 07-10-2000).]

46

I’m not trying to argue with you guys, just trying to protect the art from being overly modified… I was struggling with N. Shaolin when I found WC and fell in love!

BUT, I don’t practice WC anymore and it’s been many yrs., so I guess I just value the Classical for it’s own sake… I was trippin’ on the western boxing terminology, but I now remember the techs you’re referring to, so forgive me…

I’ll leave the future of the Art and the many variations with all it’s mindful practitioners and hope for the best…

47

MoQ, I totally agree I wasn’t trying to modify WC… just giving my interpretation of it. Believe me, I am just a beginner so I wouldn’t know where to begin to “modify” anything… I first have to learn the system before I can decide what needs any changing…
So far though, I have found all aspects of Wing Chun that suits me… from striking and trapping to throws…

I have high interest in learning BJJ, but maybe I just haven’t progressed enough in WC to find the groundfighting aspect the art. I mean I saw the western boxing connection… why not groundfighting? There are only so many ways a human body can move…

48

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buhma:
>We have a cross in Chum Kil form. The uppercut is even in the first form Sil Lim Tau.[/quote]

Where? I’m not disputing what you said, I’m just running the two forms through my head and I can’t see it.

49

Uppercut…
When you do the taun sau… make a fist…

Right or left cross…
When you are doing the 2nd form the part where you spin the first time with one arm crossed over the other (kinda looks like arms crossed in the show “I Dream of Genie” before she does her magic… sorry can’t explain it any better than that…
Anyway, if you make a fist… and take one arm away… and pivot on your feet or waist.. cross punch or hook…

Sorry for the terrible terminology… I’m very bad at alot of the Chinese terminology… that’s probably why I had trouble in Aikido also… all that aketegorisakiyaki sounded the same to me…

anyway… if you think about it Chum Kil also has the uppercut… and it is more apparent in the second form…

50

er, isn’t the tan sau going out in a straight line, so it isn’t an uppercut, as that’s a circular move?

also, at my school we don’t go into a fist, we circle our wrists, and our arm ends up in the position of a fat sau at the end, or even a biu sau (thrusting fingers), altho at another school i went to, we did indeed make a fist…

51

Buhma,

Thanks for the explaination. I don’t personnally agree with your interpretations, but I respect your right to them and I can see how they may be interpreted that way. But actually, I have to agree with Sharky. The purpose of the first form is to perfect structure and for a tan sao to become an uppercut, the structure, not just the hand, would have to be altered. I find the same to be true of the cross you mentioned. I believe for this to be a cross, power would have to be added from the shoulder. Again changing the structure. And as far as the drilling punch in the second form, it has been stressed to me many times that it drills forward, not upward like and uppercut. But then again like I said, I respect your opinion, (even though it may not sound like it. I don’t feel like I’m communicating well today). As we all know, different schools are different, not right or wrong, just different. To me, the real strength of Wing Chun is it’s unlimited interpretations and applications.

Sharky,

While I agree with your comment about tan sao and an uppercut, Buhma’s comment may have openned up another area (structure vs hand form). While it is true that the tan sao is taught with the hand open and the palm up, what is important is the structure of the arm and the movement of the elbow. These are the things that make it a tan sao motion, not the hand. In fact a lot of motions in the first form can be combined with a variety of hand forms to increase your arsonal. For example, you can use a leopards fist with a tan sao for a close range throat strike, or combine it with a bil sao. You can substitute a pheonix eye fist for a punch depending on the target, but the structure of the motion remains the same. Anyway, just food for thought.

52

and the way that the number of applications are only limited by your imagination is what makes KF so great [cheesy line, soz]

53

Highlander,
I agree with you that first form is about teaching structure and rooting that is used as the building blocks for the later forms.
And it’s great that it is there… but to ONLY do it like the forms will make Wing Chun so much kempo type movements… “in this situation you do this or this or this”
I was only stating that WC is about concepts. For example a taun sau can easily be turned into an uppercut… don’t think that a taun sau has just one (or a few) application or has to be applied in only one fashion.
Besides, you are right… it is my personal interpreation and I, like everyone else, use WC as a highly personal art… at the beginning of this thread, I did say that Yip Man’s WC was probably totally different than Wong Shun Leung’s or william Cheungs or Leung Tings…etc…
We may be taught the basics in the forms, but I said that those forms (as well as the dummy and weapons) are just the alphabet… it’s up to each person to create the words and sentences…
Just like everyone here knows how to read and write.. doesn’t make them all literary geniuses… of corze I can bairley rite anyway

Sharkey, weren’t you the one who said “shut up cunt???”

54

no, that was my friend (who was on my pc) but i didn’t think any1 would belive me/care

sorry - any1 who remembers me from a while back will know that, that isn’t my style (speaking )

Edd

55

I was just wondering, because your later posts were well thought out… a big contrast from your first posts… I’m new here so I wouldn’t know what your style of posting is.

As for the taun sau only being used on a straight line… I disagree, it can be circular also. Just because the beginnings of WC is linear does not mean it doesn’t have circular movements… isn’t the third form all circular movements?

Also… do we not have circular steps? I have no knowledge of William Cheung’s methods (someone said earlier they spar moving just back and forth) but we do use circular steps when sparring or during chi sau/chi gerk…

I agree that there are so many applications of kung fu and that does make it great… damn… I said the same cheesy line…

[This message has been edited by Buhma (edited 07-11-2000).]

56

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buhma:
but to ONLY do it like the forms will make Wing Chun so much kempo type movements… “in this situation you do this or this or this”
I was only stating that WC is about concepts.
[/quote]

I agree completely. I wasn’t advocating doing things strictly like the forms. I was saying that doing a circular Tan Sao violates the WC concept of the immoveable elbow line and the tan sao structure as I understand them. But I must also admit that, yes, the third form has circular motions and currently I have not reached the third form. If I’m not mistaken, I don’t believe Sharky has either. So I think it is best for me to keep an open mind until then and to say it violates my current understanding of the WC concepts.

57

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sihing73:
[B]Hello WT,

I see from your profile that you most likley do Leung Tings system. Now I have a question for you:

Are you saying that in WT you are taught NOT to use a Taun Sau against a round punch?

Think carefully before replying as your answer will show your level of skill Feel free to see my above post if you want to know my position. I will say that one should never reach for the attack but instead hit the nearest target. Still, the Taun will work quite well against a roundhouse if done properly. Oh, before you answer you may want to look at Tings books and ask you Sihing.

The way I have been taught we use a punch and a what they call a fook sao against a round house.
The fook sao is just to protect against what’s left of the roundhouse.

As to the foot work of William Cheung not saving him from Emin; I prefer to leave that area alone but will say that Emin did not intend to take him to the ground and once on the ground neither really displayed any groundfighting skill.

You can call me on this if you want, one of my Sihings was there and I know Emin, having trained with him in Germany. remember also the difference in ages at the time.

When was that?

BTW, for what it’s worth, I know this will upset some , Emin is not the best fighter from the WT camp. He is just the most public. How many WT fighters can you name? Then think about how many of William Cheungs students hold world records and championship titles. Do the math, William must be doing something right when he teaches his people how to fight.

How do you hold a world record in WC?

I am no longer affiliated with WT and I know I sound like I am bashing them, I am not. I am just tired of listening to some people dredge up the past. Especially when it is an incident that did nothing but hurt the name of Wing Chun. William Cheung fought in his youth in much more serious encounters than the one with Emin. He was held in high regard by the Late Bruce Lee. Seems to me he must be doing something right. But then again, what do I know?

Well,I was in a bad mood when I wrote that post.I’m on vacation now so I don’t have time for a long answer.
Have a nice summer.

WT

58

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ATENG:
[B]Hey Sihing

Just out of curiosity, who are some of the best WT fighters? They from Germany or from HK? I know there have been some HK WT fighters who did well in tournaments. But as to the ones in Germany, I haven’t heard much about. You can email me if you’d like. I was taught to use a jum sau/punch with footwork against a roundhouse.

WT
Where do you train WT at?

I train in Sweden.

and how long?

For nine years.
WT

59

Hi WT,

As to the Taun against a Roundhouse punch:
First it is an example shown in the book “Dynamic Wing Tsun How to be an agressive fighter within Six Months” Second it is also trained in some of the paired drills started at about the second student level with the incorporation of the Stance Turning with Taun DA. Of course, it is not the only technique to be used against a roundhouse and in many case most of the training is done against a more straight type of punch. Still, it is there and is a viable technique. I think a punch and 'Fook Sau" is one option though I would probably opt for a punch and a Bui Tze or perhaps a Fak Sau instead.

I was in Germany from 85 to 86 and trained quite a bit as there were seminars all over the country. In many cases we had visitors attend from outside of the German area. During at least one of the seminars Emin was present and I had the opportunity to train with him. My problem, if you want to call it that, is not with Emins level or ability but with his demeanor. I feel he showed a lack of respect for several of his seniors in the system ie; Allan Fong and Yip Chun in particular. The sihing I am refering to who attended the “incident” was Klaus Hennrich.

Please reread my earlier post I do not believe I said anyone held a “world record in Wing Chun” what I said is that William Cheung has several students who hold World Records. To clarify this I am referring to such people as Rick Spain and Alf Debroco(sp?) who have competed in full contact competitions and won them. They competed against many other stylists and faired quite well. Several of them being Wordl Class with titles bestowed. Some of the William Cheung people could probably give more details.

I intend to enjoy my summer and I wish you a good one as well. Like I said I am not trying to bash anyone I am just tired of this incident being brought up as I feel it was a disgrace and proved nothing. Afterwards both camps made differing statements and many “attempts” to arrange some sort of sanctioned event to settle things were proposed with nothing ever materializing. I left Wt due to the “political” climate and the animosity shown to some other lineage members. I am not knocking WT but I do not feel it is any better or worse than some others I have had the privilege to train with.

I also see you have trained WT for 9 years and would like to wish you well in your continuing journey. Technicaly I guess I would be your Sihing Only kidding don’t get upset. LOL

Ateng,

I will only mention a few WT fighters of note. Some are from Germany and some from Hong Kong. I think that overall the German WT players are slightly better. I think it is due to the intensity which they bring to the training. Germans seem to be very focused and I have seen Sifu kernsprecht tell someone to lose 20 pounds and they did. With that type of committment it is hard to fail. Anyhow here are some names:
Milan Prosenica/Thomas Mannes/Michael Fries/ Slavko Truntic from the German organization and its affiliates.
Cheung Cheun Fun/Tam Hung Fun from Hong Kong. I would add Allan Fong as he went with Sijo Leung Ting to introduce the art to Germany and defended the art in several matches. Since he was picked to accompany Leung Ting to spread the art I think it fair to state his level was good. Of course I am prejudiced as he was my Sifu and I lived with him but hey no ones perfect

In any event again this is not to take anything away from anyone only to show there are more than one person who could more than represent the art of WT.

Peace,

Dave

60

Hi Dave.

Just had a quick look.
The roundhouse punch in the book is more like a Choi Lai Fut kind of swing punch,anyway they don’t teach tan against a roundhouse any more.
WT