Thanks for the reply. It is easy to mistake things in this medium and sometimes we are all gulty of jumping to the wrong conclusion.
I can fully understand where you are coming from. I have been doing Wing Chun for a number of years and often found myself thinking that there was somehting missing. All I can say is that the more I explored Wing Chun the more “I” found Wing Chun has everything I need.
The Taun Sau is an interesting technique and if you explore the concept you will find that although many tranlsate Taun Sau as “Palm Up Arm” it actually means “Dispersing Arm”. Although it is difficult to explain in this medium, I think that the way William does it is closer to the idea of dispersing. The Taun kind of takes the attack and can even “lay” on it and move it out of the way, still using the opponenets force though. The direction can be directly off of your shoulder and your hands can be wider apart than in some other systems. When done in this way it has the advantage of opening uop your opponent more while still allowing you to keep control and protect your center.
As to teh footwork not having any other directions except front and back; All I can say in this is too often all people associate with Wing Chun. Still, I was taught to side step and attack from angles in just about every system I have been exposed to. You are correct in stating that Wing Chun does not rely on force and should learn to use the energy given by the opponent. I think the problem sometimes is that people start teaching before they truly understand what they are doing and why. This is not a criticism of those teaching because one must examine the motives as well. For example, I have run across guys teaching who really should not be but they were the only ones doing Wing Chun for hundreds of miles and they needed training partners, or they just had such a thirst for the art the needed to do somehting. Then there are those pressured into teaching by the MCDojos
I used to feel some of the way you do. What I mean is I would make a judgement of a system or lineage based on who I met from that lineage. But, I have come to realize that this is not fair unless I have the opportunity to train with more than one person and with different levels. I find that I, at least, need to check out a better cross section before making a decision. I have also come to realize that my opinion is just that, an opinion. Just because I do things a different way does not make me right or wrong. Wing Chun is a highly personal art and all of us get what we put into it, or any art for that matter.
In any event thanks for clearing up a few things. A bad smell is never desirable, just ask my wife as she says my feet stink Still, as we learn more about each other we can all grow more and put aside petty judgements in order to explore some of the deeper aspects of martial arts. This medium makes it a little difficult to explain things clearly at times, but also allows us to communicate with some sources we otherwise could never reach.
although, if it were a roundhouse, i wouldn’t even try blocking it unless totally forced to - the best thing to do is move out of the way, or indeed close in asap with a flurry of chain punches - or as i did once in one of my first lessons (by accident) close in then push the dude over
I see from your profile that you most likley do Leung Tings system. Now I have a question for you:
Are you saying that in WT you are taught NOT to use a Taun Sau against a round punch?
Think carefully before replying as your answer will show your level of skill Feel free to see my above post if you want to know my position. I will say that one should never reach for the attack but instead hit the nearest target. Still, the Taun will work quite well against a roundhouse if done properly. Oh, before you answer you may want to look at Tings books and ask you Sihing.
As to the foot work of William Cheung not saving him from Emin; I prefer to leave that area alone but will say that Emin did not intend to take him to the ground and once on the ground neither really displayed any groundfighting skill. You can call me on this if you want, one of my Sihings was there and I know Emin, having trained with him in Germany. remember also the difference in ages at the time.
BTW, for what it’s worth, I know this will upset some , Emin is not the best fighter from the WT camp. He is just the most public. How many WT fighters can you name? Then think about how many of William Cheungs students hold world records and championship titles. Do the math, William must be doing something right when he teaches his people how to fight.
I am no longer affiliated with WT and I know I sound like I am bashing them, I am not. I am just tired of listening to some people dredge up the past. Especially when it is an incident that did nothing but hurt the name of Wing Chun. William Cheung fought in his youth in much more serious encounters than the one with Emin. He was held in high regard by the Late Bruce Lee. Seems to me he must be doing something right. But then again, what do I know?
Just out of curiosity, who are some of the best WT fighters? They from Germany or from HK? I know there have been some HK WT fighters who did well in tournaments. But as to the ones in Germany, I haven’t heard much about. You can email me if you’d like. I was taught to use a jum sau/punch with footwork against a roundhouse.
WT
Where do you train WT at? and how long?
Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then its just fun.
Against a roundhouse punch it is best to use the circular step and outside block n punch. This is demonstrated in Wong Shun Leung’s tape. When you use the circular step this minimizes the bounce that your outside block has to take.
Folks,
I think MoQ truly said it best,“I think terms like “traditional” and “modified” are lost on Wing Chun since it appears that the tradition is to modify it.”
Those are the words of a man who understands the essence of Wing Chun.
Alot of JKD people don’t like to hear me say it, but I like to tell them that JKD IS Wing Chun, Bruce Lee’s modified Wing Chun that is.
WHO cares if Willy Cheung likes to claim he learned the “traditional” Wing Chun secretly from Yip Man? I think his fight against Emin showed us that no matter what your Wing Chun style is you must modify it to learn ground technique or all the other technique, no matter how traditional or modified, is going to be useless when that time comes that you are on the ground.
This topic of Modified vs. Traditional Wing Chun has been argued to death on other forums and probably on this one, so I have only one thing to say. MoQ said it all with,“I think terms like “traditional” and “modified” are lost on Wing Chun since it appears that the tradition is to modify it.”
-jojitsu27
ps: no matter what master says what in what book, I have found in actual streetfights and NHB type competition that the Biu Sau works wonders against a hook punch.
I like to Biu Sau the hook punch and either start into a straight blast or sometimes go right over the offending arm and put it into a standing armbar…I like breaking elbows lol!
[This message has been edited by jojitsu27 (edited 07-09-2000).]
WongSifu, I have William Chueng as my Sigung and we use Tan Sau against round punches all the time.At the correct angle or flatter nothing can get through it.And yes we do sidestedp all the time. I suggest to you that you have been mislead.
[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 07-09-2000).]
Flavour 54 interesting, what level was this at in our system under Willy we have 10 levels each comprising of 3 grades I think in my 4yrs or so I got to level 5 grd 1 and I did not come across it is this how your syllabus is roughly.
Sihing good post Thumbs up, as to the tan sau being dispersing this is exactly how it was portrayed in warriors two, he actually called it a spread hit where he moves tottally out of the way one hand punches and the other hand controls.
A question On using the waist and wing chun coordination of upper and lower body parts
During my wing chun training we were always taught how to use arms and legs, however never at the same time even though I read in an old book that this is very common in Wing chun Ie bong sau punch and a low side kick to the knee, how many practise this ?
The body however was taught to be able to move well ie pak sau switching lapsau punch. However We were never ever ever taught to use the waist.
A few years later and a few martial arts later ever single one i tried Aikido jujitsu karate hung gar and tai chi all said the same thing The waist moves first the arms follow. Eg in taichi this is especially the case, in jujitsu all throws come from the waist.
In wing chun however this was never the case and i felt this was a big gap. When i Saw Warriors 2 however the tan sau actually came from the waist so did quite a few moves Ie pak sau huen sau change sides and punch ( the change sides and punch was all performed by a waist rotation.
Do any of you practise this in wing chun, I mean really pay attention to the waisy as much as say the blocks etc ?
In my wing chun lineage, we use the waist PLENTY and also use the taun sau as a dispersing block. Never do we use it as a force on force technique like some sort of karate block. It’s almost always a controlling kind of technique. Our footwork is very mobile as well, and we’re definitely known to switch sides on ya…
I study Gulao/Pien San wing chun in Cambridge, Mass.
Henry Mui –> Stanley Jue –> Me.
I was gonna go to my first tournament in August so I could finally get a taste of some Yip Man wing chun, but I had to reschedule some gigs to open for Earth, Wind, and Fire this weekend, so now I’m not gonna be able to go.
Wongsifu … Much of what you have mentioned is taught in the dummy form. As you work around the dummy and side to side you are learning the angular attacks you mentioned. Also, combinations of hands and kicks are also in the Dummy form (Taun Sau/low palm/knee kick). As far as the twisting, yes, we are taught this also, but the twist starts with the knee, not the waist, and the punch is at the end of the movement like the tip of a whip. The twisting is used in combination with other things like the elbow to generate power, but it is not always used. This twisting is intoduced in Chum Kui and used a lot in the dummy. It is possible that the examples you saw were either at a lower level, or just hadn’t incorporated the higher level techniques into their fighting yet.
Hmmmm, I’ve been taught from early on that never to stay on one line of attack/defense.
Also that there are different levels of generating power.
You can turn from your feet, knees, waist, shoulders etc…
Of course the higher up the body you go you lose power. It all depends on when and where to apply these movements.
Also, I’ve used taun sau and straight punch to defend against a hook… but I prefer a quan sau (spelling?) and a punch instead.. that way I can deflect and grab at the same time.. my punch sofens up my openent as I get in closer for a throw or something… hard to explain…
Also as a sidenote… at my school, my sihings and sifu always that if you want to know how to punch the wing chun way, look at a boxer. All the punches a boxer has is in wing chun… even hooks and uppercuts… I think there is a misconception about Wing Chun just having straight punches…
All these ideas are okay, except that they seem to be acted from the inside and a WC man doesn’t really want to be there. The angulation in WC is the way it’s all done and there’s no “toe-to-toe” facing of the opponent. The gung fu forms are just “forms” and they must be broken up for action. I would suggest doubts about any teacher that doesn’t teach from the forms just like I would caution against one accepting candy without a wrapper. Certain adaptations or modifications are almost expected but by modification I don’t mean changing the “way” it’s done or altering the “type of movement”. WC was devised to be an art that could be applied with flexibility from a conceptual perspective.
With that in mind, do NOT punch like a western boxer. The power generation is entirely different. Do NOT jab and cross, bob and weave or any of that stuff. There is no need to add any tech that doesn’t follow the principles of the Art. If you mix WC with other styles before you know the System, or if you make extreme alterations to the core principles… please don’t call it Wing Chun Kung Fu. Have some respect.
