Mixing Wing Chun with a grappling style?

Realistic Drills

Hear is a realistic drill.

There was this hood girl right. She asked me about my Art…I said I train Wing Chun. She said what is that. I told her a little she said that stuff sounds like something for people who can’t fight…She asked can I use it…I said sure. I told her to hit me as hard as she could in my chest. She threw punch but it was way out of range it didn’t even make contact with my guards. So I said listen really hit me. She was like don’t hit back okay…I assured her…So What I did so she could know how to punch was put my hands behind my back an let her get a free hit with out me defending…So she hit me as hard as she could in my chest and stomach before I could say okay not pun…ch. I just use my breath to absorb it. Then I said okay again…So she threw her hard punch and it was kinda of low so I bong sau. Since she was trying to wallop me again upon impact she hurt her arm with my bong sau deflecting her force she drop to her knees. An was like what the f*** was that man your arms feel like metal or something…

An then again at a Tai Chi class. I told this big huge guy…he is like 6’8" are something I am 5’8" I told him to throw a round house. He threw a low one. I told him to throw it higher. I high low gan sau his left leg two or three times. He switch legs. An I did the same to his right leg. He said after about three times of thats enough and shook his leg off. He never said how my arms felt. But when he stop firing his hard hits I knew.

Later I had him throw random punches..So I could defend against it. He typically only threw punches with his right. So it was more like a drill rather in realistic.
So I had to coach him to really make contact with me. He kept pulling his punches and holding it back. So I grap his fist an pulled it to my chest said stop the punch here. So he threw a punch a couple more times the guy I guess was afraid to hit me in the chest or something. Anyway When he was ready an did hit my chest then I started defending. When Intercepted his guards he felt his balance go. I told him to hit harder. Like he was trying to knock me over with his punch. When he did that i bil sau his arm. It must felt like a cut to his arm because then he switch up to the left. An then we had a little exchange. I showed him jum sau when he punch low. He was surprise that it stung his arm so much.

Also another time my Sihing and I were doing Chum Kiu. We were comparing Yip Man’s CK to that of Yuen Kay San CK. anyway some young teens came by an asked does that stuff work. My Sihing said oh come on throw some punches. The big guy asked him if he was going to hit him back…He said no. So the guy threw his punches. My Sihing simply pak sau continously. The young guy didnt land a blow.

So these are realistic drills. Practice your techniques with different people. The best way to get random challenges is to practice at a park or somewhere public someone will eventually come over an start asking questions. An wonder if it really works.

We should try to practice realistic drills with one another an others. Try different things. For instance drill one…

1.Work on trapping. (Have your opponent fire punches at you while you attempt to trap and hit him).

2.Work on defense against kicks(Have your partner fire random hard kicks while you defend).

3.Work on accuracy and timing(Pick one place to hit your partner be it the left cheek or middle of the chest. While they throw punches and kicks at you hard).

4.Work on Deflecting hard attacks by defending and evading only.

These are realistic drills they hard and you don’t know whats coming.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939410]Sustained arm contact is just ONE way to creat a bridge. A bridge is any structure that connects me to my opponent.

WCK’s method is to control while striking. It is the control that provides our safety and sets up the striking. The notion that “once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit” won’t stop himfrom hitting you back (and your opponent can change facing in a split second as he hits). Saying “WCK is a striking art” is to miss the most important aspect of WCK, the control. It’s like saying that GNP is a “striking approach”. Sure, but it is the control on the ground that makes GNP work Just like it is the control that makes WCK work.[/QUOTE]

D*** you Niehoff I hate when I have to agree with you…wow…you are so right…

[QUOTE=Eric_H;939432]Yeah, i just said that in my post above.

So your point is to control the person before you hit. That isn’t any different from establishing proper range and facing, those are what give you the control.

That still doesn’t mean that chi sao = grappling as you said before.[/QUOTE]

What is the meaning of grappling???

Also is all grappling done on the ground???

Also is all grappling done on the ground???

I guess it could happen in mid-air (two guys fighting over a parachute, how’s that for incentive?) or underwater. Usually on the ground, though.

You can grapple standing up, which is what I think you were alluding to.

Realistic drills

Seldom has a post been more inappropriately titled. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939400]No, I just don’t care about the “HFY perspective” – which I think is just piles of Garrett Gee’s theory (the sh1t that it is) on top of TWC.
[/QUOTE]

This is out of line Terrence and you know it. YOU want to back this statement up?? Come to San Francisco, and I will personally take you for a walk.

Don’t think for one second you can hide behind all your other KF brother’s achievements!

As for your TWC nonsense, it has not only been discussed and debated to death, but anyone who really cared about it would actually take the time to come see for themselves.

Like the multitudes of WC’rs from other schools who already have.

YOU on the other hand just talk SH1T. And hide from potential sparring partners and tell them instead to go train MUAY THAI.

Get real Terrence. Life is too short for this crap.

You hate HFY. We get it. Stop your beatchin, and frickin’ put us on your ignore list already.

As for this thread. My opinion is that WC does contain stand-up grappling. As in Kum Na/Chi Na. But it’s a grappling that is alive and flowing by utilizing what we refer to as CONTACT CONTROL, and not actual dead hand fully committed grappling.

This is the core difference between anti-grappling, and counter grappling.

For more info read:

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346

As for mixing in grappling with WC. I believe you can mix in whatever you like. Once you understand WC’s core body mechanics, to varying degrees, any outside technique and applications can be incorporated successfully.

However I do not think I’d ever go to a WC school that is trying also to be a MMA school to learn Jiu Jitsu. I’d rather just go straight to the source and learn the real deal. But hey… that’s just me.

[QUOTE=AdrianK;939386]You forgot to include the rest of how this plays out. After you hit him in the face hard, he deals with getting hit and continues to grab your legs and slam you on your back, then force-feeds you some knuckle-sandwiches.

The whole strike-defense to a shoot is about the stupidest ****ing idea out there, unless the guy you’re fighting is 120lb emo kid. This has been proven time and again in MMA. Hitting a guy shooting at you DOESNT STOP THEM. And fights aren’t won by single strikes.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. This is what we call sharp shooting, and may work if the stars are aligned properly and you just happened to deliver one of your best most powerful punches ever etc…

However I do believe that Wing Chun has it’s own equivalent of a “sprawl” type body mechanic. One that uses footwork positioning and range over fully committed leaning. Not to mention, the strike itself can be the bridge/point of contact.

But it’s a grappling that is alive and flowing by utilizing what we refer to as CONTACT CONTROL, and not actual dead hand fully committed grappling.

What do you mean by “dead hand” in this context? Is it like a “death grip”, perhaps?

I read the HFY108 thread you quoted, there was some good though, not revolutionary or revelatory, thoughts presented there, but it didn’t explain the distinction you make here.

I wouldn’t describe wrestlers as necessarily having “dead hands”, myself. And I’ve met no decent ones that aren’t VERY “alive and flowing”.

[QUOTE=anerlich;939489]What do you mean by “dead hand” in this context? Is it like a “death grip”, perhaps?

I read the HFY108 thread you quoted, there was some good though, not revolutionary or revelatory, thoughts presented there, but it didn’t explain the distinction you make here.

I wouldn’t describe wrestlers as necessarily having “dead hands”, myself. And I’ve met no decent ones that aren’t VERY “alive and flowing”.[/QUOTE]

Death Grip? Come on.. that’s not up to par for the famous Anerlich wit. Or maybe it is. :rolleyes:

No. First off, dead hand is not an insult, And of course good wrestlers are alive and flowing. I’m talking about point of contact and how it is controlled. Meaning Contact Control .

Dead hand in this situation refers to the condition where your hand is fully committed solely to holding on to it’s point of contact on your opponent.

Live hand means that you use your hand to control/limit direction of movement and space but do not commit it or “tie it down” to your opponents hand or point of contact. Like fully gripping with your fingers and thumb for example. Instead, live hand is kept free in motion. Thereby allowing it to still be free to slip (while maintaining contact and influencing) stick, or strike.

Admittedly, sometimes dead-hand is the only solution, however live hand is what is sought out.

[QUOTE=Eric_H;939432]So your point is to control the person before you hit. That isn’t any different from establishing proper range and facing, those are what give you the control.
[/QUOTE]

“Proper range and facing” is NOT control. Controlling your opponent means he can’t do anything productive except try to get out of your control. Being in position to strike, even to hit and not be hit (like being behind a person) isn’t the same thing as being able to control that person. Controlling your opponent will give you the opportunity to hit, but being able to hit doesn’t mean you have control.

That still doesn’t mean that chi sao = grappling as you said before.

Grappling is being in contact and trying to physically manipulate your opponent to reach your objective. That’s what wrestlers do, that’s what judoka do, that’s what sumo wrestlers do,and that’s what we do in WCK – except we add strikesto the mix. Chi sao is similar to a wreslter’s handfighting.

[QUOTE=duende;939487]This is out of line Terrence and you know it. YOU want to back this statement up?? Come to San Francisco, and I will personally take you for a walk.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, the deadly internet challenge! If I ever visit San Francisco and want to waste some time with anyone in HFY, it would be to stop by and play with Garrett.

Don’t think for one second you can hide behind all your other KF brother’s achievements!

I’m not hiding at all. I just want it clear that I don’t give a rat’s ass about the HFY perspective, and now you know why I don’t. So you and all your fellow cultmembers can stop trying to share your fantasy perspectivewith me.

As for your TWC nonsense, it has not only been discussed and debated to death, but anyone who really cared about it would actually take the time to come see for themselves.

I did see for myself. I saw Garrett in person. But you are correct, that if anyone is interested they should go and see for themselves. However, I can’t begin to imagine why anyone except someone seeking fantasy would be interested to see for themselves.

Like the multitudes of WC’rs from other schools who already have.

Which proves what? That there are lots of suckers out there? That there arelots of gullible people? That some people want to believe comic book martial art fantasies? OK, I concede the point.

YOU on the other hand just talk SH1T. And hide from potential sparring partners and tell them instead to go train MUAY THAI.

Get real Terrence. Life is too short for this crap.

You hate HFY. We get it. Stop your beatchin, and frickin’ put us on your ignore list already.

I don’t hate HFY, I just think there is a lot of things wrong with WCK and TCMA as a whole. And I think Garrett has taken everything that is wrong and put it into his “system”.

I’ll gladly ignore you. Don’t respond to my posts and I’ll ignore you. I don’t want anything to do with your unhealthy group. But when you fellows enter into I conversastion I’m having, I won’t ignore you.

As for this thread. My opinion is that WC does contain stand-up grappling. As in Kum Na/Chi Na. But it’s a grappling that is alive and flowing by utilizing what we refer to as CONTACT CONTROL, and not actual dead hand fully committed grappling.

This is the core difference between anti-grappling, and counter grappling.

For more info read:

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346

As for mixing in grappling with WC. I believe you can mix in whatever you like. Once you understand WC’s core body mechanics, to varying degrees, any outside technique and applications can be incorporated successfully.

However I do not think I’d ever go to a WC school that is trying also to be a MMA school to learn Jiu Jitsu. I’d rather just go straight to the source and learn the real deal. But hey… that’s just me.

“Go to the source and learn from the real deal.” LOL! You guys are straight out of a comic book.

[QUOTE=duende;939490]Death Grip? Come on.. that’s not up to par for the famous Anerlich wit. Or maybe it is. :rolleyes:

No. First off, dead hand is not an insult, And of course good wrestlers are alive and flowing. I’m talking about point of contact and how it is controlled. Meaning Contact Control .

Dead hand in this situation refers to the condition where your hand is fully committed solely to holding on to it’s point of contact on your opponent.

Live hand means that you use your hand to control/limit direction of movement and space but do not commit it or “tie it down” to your opponents hand or point of contact. Like fully gripping with your fingers and thumb for example. Instead, live hand is kept free in motion. Thereby allowing it to still be free to slip (while maintaining contact and influencing) stick, or strike.

Admittedly, sometimes dead-hand is the only solution, however live hand is what is sought out.[/QUOTE]

A good grappler doesn’t “dead hand”, ever. If you know anything about hand and grip fighting you would know that your grips are a bridge to off balancing, a take down or a throw, they are not an end in and of themselves.

Even in MT the clinch is a bridge to a wide variety of strikes and will be abandoned the moment it is no longer an advantage.

To hang on to a grip or a clinch when it is not working is the sign of a beginner.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939503]Oh, the deadly internet challenge! If I ever visit San Francisco and want to waste some time with anyone in HFY, it would be to stop by and play with Garrett. [/QUOTE]

Now you truly are delusional.

I’ll back up everything I write here. That’s just one difference among many between us apparently.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939503]
I’m not hiding at all. I just want it clear that I don’t give a rat’s ass about the HFY perspective, and now you know why I don’t. So you and all your fellow cultmembers can stop trying to share your fantasy perspectivewith me.
[/QUOTE]

This is a forum Terence. And as such, if you have a problem with any of my KF brother’s, then take your issue up with them directly. Is that so hard for you to understand??

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939503]
I did see for myself. I saw Garrett in person. But you are correct, that if anyone is interested they should go and see for themselves. However, I can’t begin to imagine why anyone except someone seeking fantasy would be interested to see for themselves.
[/QUOTE]

See for yourself?? Ha that is funny. Sitting off to the side on, too chicken-sh1t to touch hands with anybody. Yeah… your a real poster boy for hands-on experience. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939503]
Which proves what? That there are lots of suckers out there? That there arelots of gullible people? That some people want to believe comic book martial art fantasies? OK, I concede the point.
[/QUOTE]

You want to make us the target for all your own insecurities, then that is your own problem. Again. Keep your insults directed at the person who you are in conflict with.

Do not involve my Sifu or school, or else I am going to call you out for the punk that you are.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939503]
I don’t hate HFY, I just think there is a lot of things wrong with WCK and TCMA as a whole. And I think Garrett has taken everything that is wrong and put it into his “system”.
[/QUOTE]

Again. Cheap talk from a toothless tiger. Grow up.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939503]
I’ll gladly ignore you. Don’t respond to my posts and I’ll ignore you. I don’t want anything to do with your unhealthy group. But when you fellows enter into I conversastion I’m having, I won’t ignore you.
[/QUOTE]

I do ignore you Terence. But when you make comments that are out of line, I only ask that you back them in the real world.

For someone who talks so much about “reality testing” this and " real fighting" that… You are a nothing more than best example of everything you rant against.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939503]

“Go to the source and learn from the real deal.” LOL! You guys are straight out of a comic book.[/QUOTE]

See… perfect example. You still don’t know who your target is. You disagree with MY statement, then address me directly. Not “you guys”.

How old are you? Seriously.

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;939298]
BTW dumb a$$, I was talking about a lap sau technique, not some “lop sau excersize”. That’s why I used the word ‘technique’. Didn’t they teach you to read in law school?

Maybe you need those Hooked on Phonics books like your friend Hendrik..[/QUOTE]

what is the point to drag me into this? is this the type of anti -qing righteousness you learn?

[QUOTE=m1k3;939508]A good grappler doesn’t “dead hand”, ever. If you know anything about hand and grip fighting you would know that your grips are a bridge to off balancing, a take down or a throw, they are not an end in and of themselves.

Even in MT the clinch is a bridge to a wide variety of strikes and will be abandoned the moment it is no longer an advantage.

To hang on to a grip or a clinch when it is not working is the sign of a beginner.[/QUOTE]

You have completely failed to understand my point. And instead have made some very obvious statements that have nothing to do with my post.

Read my post again. With live hand “contact control” one can influence and limited an opponent’s movement while AT THE SAME TIME having his hand free to move to better positioning, strike, etc.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;939523]what is the point to drag me into this? is this the type of anti -qing righteousness you learn?[/QUOTE]

Hendrik… for once, I will agree with you. :smiley:

[QUOTE=duende;939526]You have completely failed to understand my point. And instead have made some very obvious statements that have nothing to do with my post.

Read my post again. With live hand “contact control” one can influence and limited an opponent’s movement while AT THE SAME TIME having his hand free to move to better positioning, strike, etc.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you mean with live hand. I’m not sure what you mean with dead hand. Please explain it a little differently to me. I was kind of like anerlich and thought you meant that dead head was like a death grip, hang on at all costs.

I was pointing out that good grapplers don’t dead hand even if the thumb is wrapped around for the grip.

If you mean something different please explain. :confused:

[QUOTE=duende;939520]
This is a forum Terence. And as such, if you have a problem with any of my KF brother’s, then take your issue up with them directly. Is that so hard for you to understand??
[/QUOTE]

I have no issue with that. I will be in SL in 3 weeks for work. I’d be more than happy to go look T up and he can show me how ‘wrong’ I am in my thinking :wink:
He has a standing invite for anyone in town to come train with him right? I’m cool with that, he doesn’t have to travel anywhere. Not a challenge, just accepting the open invite..

Of course, I’d probably have to go take a few years MT first like the other guy that lives there and took T up on his ‘open invite’ :eek:

Or maybe he would act like he does at seminars and just sit in the corner afraid to touch hands..

Or maybe he’d whine something about not being interested after all…

Or maybe he’d say ‘no, but you can meet me in LA when I’m there so my brothers that actually can fight can back me up’.. :rolleyes:

Sorry for sidelining the thread. I was trying to keep my posts on-subject before T got his panties wadded up and tried his silly attempt to make it personal. I’ll PM T so we can talk about maybe meeting up when I’m in SL and take this off the forums.

Jonathan

[QUOTE=Hendrik;939523]what is the point to drag me into this? is this the type of anti -qing righteousness you learn?[/QUOTE]

My bad, was a low blow.

BTW, I am not anti-qing. I live in America and have no personal involvment with Chinese politics, past or present. But it’s interesting studies none-the-less!

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;939569]I have no issue with that. I will be in SL in 3 weeks for work. I’d be more than happy to go look T up and he can show me how ‘wrong’ I am in my thinking :wink:
He has a standing invite for anyone in town to come train with him right? I’m cool with that, he doesn’t have to travel anywhere. Not a challenge, just accepting the open invite..

Of course, I’d probably have to go take a few years MT first like the other guy that lives there and took T up on his ‘open invite’ :eek:

Or maybe he would act like he does at seminars and just sit in the corner afraid to touch hands..

Or maybe he’d whine something about not being interested after all…

Or maybe he’d say ‘no, but you can meet me in LA when I’m there so my brothers that actually can fight can back me up’.. :rolleyes:

Sorry for sidelining the thread. I was trying to keep my posts on-subject before T got his panties wadded up and tried his silly attempt to make it personal. I’ll PM T so we can talk about maybe meeting up when I’m in SL and take this off the forums.

Jonathan[/QUOTE]

My apologies for sidelining the thread too.

I just feel that people should have healthy dialog, and be able to disagree amongst themselves without bringing insults of each other’s family and teachers into the picture. That is lame.

Speak for yourself. Represent yourself. It’s that simple.

[QUOTE=m1k3;939531]I understand what you mean with live hand. I’m not sure what you mean with dead hand. Please explain it a little differently to me. I was kind of like anerlich and thought you meant that dead head was like a death grip, hang on at all costs.

I was pointing out that good grapplers don’t dead hand even if the thumb is wrapped around for the grip.

If you mean something different please explain. :confused:[/QUOTE]

No prob. And no it does not mean “hang on at all costs”. It is not an insult by anymeans, just a description of a different kind of contact control.

Dead hand in this context simply means the hand is committed solely to one action at one given moment… not that it is stagnant or anything like that, only that it is dedicated to one function at one point in time.

Therefore it is less able to serve two purposes, like limit motion while gaining positioning at one time. Or “kill two birds with one stone” if you will.