Wrestlers are already glorious.
[QUOTE=Keefer;937955]Would mixing WC with any grappling style make a WC practioner more prepared for any type of attack or would it make his/her WC watered down?[/QUOTE]
Grappling is really important in a modern martial art, if you want to be an all round fighter. Fortunately WC is already crammed full of grappling, its all there in the forms right in plain sight. If you can see it. It doesnt deal with groundfighting though, so this would have to come from outside of the system, it just isnt there.
Mixing WC with other grappling styles wouldnt water it down, but merely compliment it. Its already there, but there are still new concepts and directions to learn. e.g. underhooks, overhooks etc etc.
WC is a lot more flexible than the constrictive moulds some people try to constrain it to through their lack of understanding.
Fortunately WC is already crammed full of grappling, its all there in the forms right in plain sight. If you can see it.
Which one is it? plain sight or if you can see it ?
[QUOTE=Genetic;939076]Grappling is really important in a modern martial art, if you want to be an all round fighter. Fortunately WC is already crammed full of grappling, its all there in the forms right in plain sight. If you can see it. It doesnt deal with groundfighting though, so this would have to come from outside of the system, it just isnt there.
Mixing WC with other grappling styles wouldnt water it down, but merely compliment it. Its already there, but there are still new concepts and directions to learn. e.g. underhooks, overhooks etc etc.
WC is a lot more flexible than the constrictive moulds some people try to constrain it to through their lack of understanding.[/QUOTE]
As I see WCK, the method (faat) or basic gameplan of WCK is to control the opponent while striking him. To control an opponent requires “grappling”. Chi sao is “grappling”. Lop sao is “grappling”. Those drills teach you how to mix grappling (controlling) and striking.
Moreover, as I see it, WCK is essentially a basic framework (like any other martial art), and you can add to the framework without compromising its integrity.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939161]As I see WCK, the method (faat) or basic gameplan of WCK is to control the opponent while striking him.[/QUOTE]
To an extent, I agree with you here.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939161] To control an opponent requires “grappling”. Chi sao is “grappling”. Lop sao is “grappling”. Those drills teach you how to mix grappling (controlling) and striking.[/QUOTE]
I totally disagree. You don’t have to ‘grapple’ someone to take control of them (and by control, I am assuming you are meaning thier COG & limbs). You do have to connect with your opponent, have a superior position and proper leverage, but you don’t have to grab or hold them tocontrol them.
[I]Grapple (from dictionary.com):
verb (used without object)
- to hold or make fast to something, as with a grapple.
.. - to seize another, or each other, in a firm grip, as in wrestling; clinch.
- to engage in a struggle or close encounter (usually fol. by with): He was grappling with a boy twice his size.
–verb (used with object)
6. to seize, hold, or fasten with or as with a grapple.
7. to seize in a grip, take hold of: The thug grappled him around the neck [/I]
Even in the technique lop sau, you shouldn’t have a firm hold or grasp on your opponent. You shouldn’t totally grab with your thumb and hold on - that would be grappling by definition. This would slow you down and give some of your advantage back to your opponent. You would then have to release your grab if you wanted to strike which gives your opponent time to react.
Chi Sau in the traditional sense is surely about bridging and controlling your opponent, but it’s not grappling either. Grappling only can happen when you lose your advantage of control in the chi sau moment 
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;939249]Even in the technique lop sau, you shouldn’t have a firm hold or grasp on your opponent. You shouldn’t totally grab with your thumb and hold on - that would be grappling by definition. This would slow you down and give some of your advantage back to your opponent. You would then have to release your grab if you wanted to strike which gives your opponent time to react.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, a proper grip on a kimono or clothes in grappling does not involve totally grabbing with your thumb and holding on - that expends too much energy and leaves you stiff which allows your opponent a lever. Proper sleeve / collar grip is bottom 3 fingers. Loose, but pulling away it gets tighter. Or leaves you free to release and move.
Like lop sau, no?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939161]As I see WCK, the method (faat) or basic gameplan of WCK is to control the opponent while striking him. To control an opponent requires “grappling”. Chi sao is “grappling”. Lop sao is “grappling”. Those drills teach you how to mix grappling (controlling) and striking.
[/QUOTE]
So how well does your chi sau / lop sau “grappling” work against BJJ black belts?
That said I agree also that the method/faat/gameplan of WCK is you controlling your space and your opponents space. To control an opponent can happen with a bridge, but can also happen with superior positioning without a bridge.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;939260]Actually, a proper grip on a kimono or clothes in grappling does not involve totally grabbing with your thumb and holding on - that expends too much energy and leaves you stiff which allows your opponent a lever. Proper sleeve / collar grip is bottom 3 fingers. Loose, but pulling away it gets tighter. Or leaves you free to release and move.
Like lop sau, no?[/QUOTE]
Depends which Lop
As for mixing grappling with WC, I agree with some of what was said above. A person should go out and play and experience different styles as the opportunity becomes available to them, especially if a high-level teacher falls in your path. Just know that if you stick with WC, eventually the two won’t mix and you’ll have to choose one over the other.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;939261]So how well does your chi sau / lop sau “grappling” work against BJJ black belts?
That said I agree also that the method/faat/gameplan of WCK is you controlling your space and your opponents space. To control an opponent can happen with a bridge, but can also happen with superior positioning without a bridge.[/QUOTE]
The “grappling” I’m talking about takes place STANDING.
Space is an aspect of control, as is positioning. A “bridge” is required. What I mean by “bridge” is a connection to the opponent (not necessarily with his arm). Without contact, there can be no control.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;939249]To an extent, I agree with you here.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t really care whether someone who does fantasy fu agrees with me or not.
I totally disagree. You don’t have to ‘grapple’ someone to take control of them (and by control, I am assuming you are meaning thier COG & limbs). You do have to connect with your opponent, have a superior position and proper leverage, but you don’t have to grab or hold them tocontrol them.
[I]Grapple (from dictionary.com):
verb (used without object)
- to hold or make fast to something, as with a grapple.
.. - to seize another, or each other, in a firm grip, as in wrestling; clinch.
- to engage in a struggle or close encounter (usually fol. by with): He was grappling with a boy twice his size.
–verb (used with object)
6. to seize, hold, or fasten with or as with a grapple.
7. to seize in a grip, take hold of: The thug grappled him around the neck [/I]
Semantics. “Grappling” is maintaining sustained contact with an opponent. Naturally it does involve holding/seizing but there are also other aspects (like pressing, spreading, jerking, etc.). And there are varying degrees of control. To fully control someone for anything other than a very brief period of time, you must grab them. Should you ever learn WCK, you’ll see this is true.
Even in the technique lop sau, you shouldn’t have a firm hold or grasp on your opponent. You shouldn’t totally grab with your thumb and hold on - that would be grappling by definition. This would slow you down and give some of your advantage back to your opponent. You would then have to release your grab if you wanted to strike which gives your opponent time to react.
All of this is nonsense. And, I can tell by your description that you think the objective of the lop sao exercise is to strike the opponent. It’s not.
Chi Sau in the traditional sense is surely about bridging and controlling your opponent, but it’s not grappling either. Grappling only can happen when you lose your advantage of control in the chi sau moment
Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling. There are many different ways to maintain sustained contact. Chi sao isn’t a “moment”, it is an artificial, unrealistic exercise.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939276]
Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling. There are many different ways to maintain sustained contact. Chi sao isn’t a “moment”, it is an artificial, unrealistic exercise.[/QUOTE]
Not true, sustained arm to arm contact is called bridging. It’s a hallmark of most Chinese martial arts, you should try to learn one sometime.
To a degree you are right, Lop Sao isn’t about “hitting” it’s about controlling facing and re-establishing your own. As WCK is a striking art, once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit. So from another point it is about hitting, it always is…
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939276]I don’t really care whether someone who does fantasy fu agrees with me or not.
Semantics. “Grappling” is maintaining sustained contact with an opponent. Naturally it does involve holding/seizing but there are also other aspects (like pressing, spreading, jerking, etc.). And there are varying degrees of control. To fully control someone for anything other than a very brief period of time, you must grab them. Should you ever learn WCK, you’ll see this is true.
All of this is nonsense. And, I can tell by your description that you think the objective of the lop sao exercise is to strike the opponent. It’s not.
Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling. There are many different ways to maintain sustained contact. Chi sao isn’t a “moment”, it is an artificial, unrealistic exercise.[/QUOTE]
Hahaha, still have your panties on too tight I see!
Whatever you think you know about me doesn’t change the fact that you only have a surface level understanding of WCK at best. And don’t act like you know what ‘chi sau’ is. One minute you are saying Chi Sau is “grappling with striking”, then you are saying it’s an “artificial, unrealistic excersize”. Are you saying when someone controls and hits you, it’s not realistic?
BTW dumb a$$, I was talking about a lap sau technique, not some “lop sau excersize”. That’s why I used the word ‘technique’. Didn’t they teach you to read in law school? Maybe you need those Hooked on Phonics books like your friend Hendrik..
[QUOTE=Eric_H;939290]Not true, sustained arm to arm contact is called bridging. It’s a hallmark of most Chinese martial arts, you should try to learn one sometime.
.[/QUOTE]
Bridging is not SUSTAINED anything, that is a very rudimentary view of bridging.
Contact is bridging, but it doesn’t need, nor should it be(typically), sustained.
You can even bridge with NO contact.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;939261]So how well does your chi sau / lop sau “grappling” work against BJJ black belts?
[/QUOTE]
just to play devils advocate, I train with a Brown belt who uses “chi sao”, and has picked it up on his own. He uses it for grip fighting and setting things up. I one day asked him what exactly he was doing and he told me he watches “wing chun sticky hands”. He has a better bong sao(and understanding of it) then I would say most wing chun people. Its pretty cool some of the stuff he does. He does allot of redirects into things like arm drags ect.. I havn’t really tried allot of that stuff its over my head.. but its a great idea i’m going to add to my game.
stuff that I see allot is bong sao and tan sao redirecting and fook sao. I use gua sao allot andlop sao
I use chi sao ideas and wing chun ideas all the time when I roll. I roll with black belts, brown belts, purples, blues, and whites. I’m sure if we would discuss what I mean by ideas we would have a very different view.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;939299]Bridging is not SUSTAINED anything, that is a very rudimentary view of bridging.
Contact is bridging, but it doesn’t need, nor should it be(typically), sustained.
You can even bridge with NO contact.[/QUOTE]
Yes, bridging may also interchangeably used with the strategy of setup (bai jong) intercepting (jeet kiu). What’s your point?
Since the discussion is about chi sao, chi sao is bridging, not grappling as is the point i was refuting.
What are we really discussing here?
Semantics are a real b!tch huh? Wouldn’t it be nice if we could all meet up and really see who has kung fu? Chi Sau? The ability to speak engish?
I guess my point is, if you are going to get on a FORUM and talk $heit, you should probably be CLEAR about what you are talking about. One second some of you are talking about chi sau, the next yer talking about grappling, then the next you are talking abou “fantasy fu”.
The original question had to do with combining WC with grappling. In my opinion, as someone said earlier, it is good to have a working knowledge about how some butt licker is going to try to get you to the ground, but if you are a WC guy, then you hit him as he bends down to start playing with your genitals. You hit him right in the face. Hard. :mad:
but if you are a WC guy, then you hit him as he bends down to start playing with your genitals. You hit him right in the face. Hard.
You forgot to include the rest of how this plays out. After you hit him in the face hard, he deals with getting hit and continues to grab your legs and slam you on your back, then force-feeds you some knuckle-sandwiches.
The whole strike-defense to a shoot is about the stupidest ****ing idea out there, unless the guy you’re fighting is 120lb emo kid. This has been proven time and again in MMA. Hitting a guy shooting at you DOESNT STOP THEM. And fights aren’t won by single strikes.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;939298]Hahaha, still have your panties on too tight I see!
[/QUOTE]
No, I just don’t care about the “HFY perspective” – which I think is just piles of Garrett Gee’s theory (the sh1t that it is) on top of TWC.
Whatever you think you know about me doesn’t change the fact that you only have a surface level understanding of WCK at best. And don’t act like you know what ‘chi sau’ is. One minute you are saying Chi Sau is “grappling with striking”, then you are saying it’s an “artificial, unrealistic excersize”. Are you saying when someone controls and hits you, it’s not realistic?
The drill is an unrealistic exercise. Read the **** thread and get someone with half a brain (outside of HFY) to help you, and you might understand what I mean. That the drill is unrealistic doesn’t affect what you are drilling/exercising.
BTW dumb a$$, I was talking about a lap sau technique, not some “lop sau excersize”. That’s why I used the word ‘technique’. Didn’t they teach you to read in law school? Maybe you need those Hooked on Phonics books like your friend Hendrik..
I guess you don’t practice the lop sao technique in the lop sao drill.
[QUOTE=Eric_H;939290]Not true, sustained arm to arm contact is called bridging. It’s a hallmark of most Chinese martial arts, you should try to learn one sometime.
[/QUOTE]
Sustained arm contact is just ONE way to creat a bridge. A bridge is any structure that connects me to my opponent.
To a degree you are right, Lop Sao isn’t about “hitting” it’s about controlling facing and re-establishing your own. As WCK is a striking art, once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit. So from another point it is about hitting, it always is…
WCK’s method is to control while striking. It is the control that provides our safety and sets up the striking. The notion that “once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit” won’t stop himfrom hitting you back (and your opponent can change facing in a split second as he hits). Saying “WCK is a striking art” is to miss the most important aspect of WCK, the control. It’s like saying that GNP is a “striking approach”. Sure, but it is the control on the ground that makes GNP work Just like it is the control that makes WCK work.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;939410]Sustained arm contact is just ONE way to creat a bridge. A bridge is any structure that connects me to my opponent.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, i just said that in my post above.
WCK’s method is to control while striking. It is the control that provides our safety and sets up the striking. The notion that “once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit” won’t stop himfrom hitting you back (and your opponent can change facing in a split second as he hits). Saying “WCK is a striking art” is to miss the most important aspect of WCK, the control. It’s like saying that GNP is a “striking approach”. Sure, but it is the control on the ground that makes GNP work Just like it is the control that makes WCK work.
So your point is to control the person before you hit. That isn’t any different from establishing proper range and facing, those are what give you the control.
That still doesn’t mean that chi sao = grappling as you said before.