CASTLE, i got here by turning on the computer:)
nah, i was just thinktyping trying to remember everything bad i have heard relating to western martial artists and their external methods of thought/fighting…prolly come back later to clarify.
" CASTLE, i got here by turning on the computer"
You mean you were directed right here when you turned on the computer?
"nah, i was just thinktyping trying to remember everything bad i have heard relating to western martial artists and their external methods of thought/fighting…prolly come back later to clarify. "
OK.
I´ll see then.This thread has the attributes to open a worm can but wé´ll see.
Everything you “have heard” relates pretty well,I have the idea that you were being about as serious as I was.
ah taiji and weights. This is very debatable. Actually, internal martial arts and weightlifting in general is quite controversial. It’s not like any type of resistance training was prohibited for people who trainined in internal martial arts though. For example, the chen village is still a farming village and people there still do manual labor. Aikido’s founder Morihei Ueshiba’s farm tools weight a lot more than normal farm tools. And so on. I’m sure doing squats, deads, bench, pull ups, etc., won’t hurt your internal martial arts practice. But I don’t think they will improve them that much.
Internal martial arts, if you take away the mysterious qi aspect of it, requires you to move in a certain way. Most of the power is from the waist instead of the upper body. The only type of upper body strength that you probably need is a strong enough frame to conduct the waist’s power. Taiji ppl practice taiji slow so they can repattern the body to move a certain way. And if they do it that way correctly for a long time, they will get ‘strong’ in a different way. They won’t be able to squat 3x their body weight, but stories show that ppl find they can hit or throw harder after good internal practices.
Also, people who do internal arts and want to incorporate weights will do that. They’ll start with really light weights first because starting too heavy will cause old habits to come back (using their shoulders for example).
Originally posted by Kumkuat
I’m sure doing squats, deads, bench, pull ups, etc., won’t hurt your internal martial arts practice. But I don’t think they will improve them that much.
The idea is not to improve what you are training in per se, but you are giving yourself an extra advantage. Take grappling for example. Ideally, you want to remain relaxed and use good technique. Alot of times, this is very effective. BUT, there are times, like say, being mounted by someone considerably heavier than you, where the ability to contract your muscles that much harder may be the only thing that makes your bridge and roll attempt good enough to get him off of you. It’s all about advantages. does MA training guarantee you’ll win a fight? no, but it makes your chances better. Will strength training guarantee that your technique will be strong enough to win? no, but it’s an extra ace in the hole that you may need.
Internal martial arts, if you take away the mysterious qi aspect of it, requires you to move in a certain way. Most of the power is from the waist instead of the upper body.
IME, everything I’ve trained in stressed using the waist. They tend not to emphasize, the qua, a rounded back, etc though, so I know what you are getting at.
The only type of upper body strength that you probably need is a strong enough frame to conduct the waist’s power. Taiji ppl practice taiji slow so they can repattern the body to move a certain way. And if they do it that way correctly for a long time, they will get ‘strong’ in a different way. They won’t be able to squat 3x their body weight, but stories show that ppl find they can hit or throw harder after good internal practices.
that’s something that should come with training anyway. A good judoka can throw you lightly, or he can make your brain rattle if he so desires.
Also, people who do internal arts and want to incorporate weights will do that. They’ll start with really light weights first because starting too heavy will cause old habits to come back (using their shoulders for example).
Once again, that’s something that should come with training - nobody should start with heavy weights that they can’t handle. That’s how people get torn pecs, knee injuries from squatting, etc. it should be a progression.
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Martial skill is mre difficult than weightlifting is what it says in “the 72 concumate skills f Shaolin” so, the stone locks and iron palm are, in a way, BETTER because they are MORE DIFFICULT than just weightlifting.
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sme of the anti-weight lifting rhetoric may be like the bible saying dn’t wear plaid on thursday r whatever. Largely symbolic.
I
But moving ‘internally’ are not techniques on how to move. It’s more like principles that people need to maintain. But I understand what your saying about how extra strength will help you in certain positions. Also that judo example you gave is more technique based. Practice the same throw over and over and you’ll get good at it. While for internal practices, your whole body should develop the way of moving and can be applied to any qinna, lock, hit, etc., FWIW.
"The idea is not to improve what you are training in per se, but you are giving yourself an extra advantage. Take grappling for example. Ideally, you want to remain relaxed and use good technique. Alot of times, this is very effective. BUT, there are times, like say, being mounted by someone considerably heavier than you, where the ability to contract your muscles that much harder may be the only thing that makes your bridge and roll attempt good enough to get him off of you. It’s all about advantages. does MA training guarantee you’ll win a fight? no, but it makes your chances better. Will strength training guarantee that your technique will be strong enough to win? no, but it’s an extra ace in the hole that you may need. "
Excellent.
To state otherwise is equal to saying that improved health is of no use.
Or the same as arguing that someone blessed with a good build is not cabable of working beyond that,willful ignorance or jealousy?
Improved coordination that one can achieve from decent strength training is nothing to make fun of either.
It is all plain advantage and benefit,it will not hurt.
Just like any athlete knows,well-rounded training is good.
Builders walk/jog or bike,hammer throwers lift…etc.
Anyways,some good articles.
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=30
Originally posted by Kumkuat
But moving ‘internally’ are not techniques on how to move. It’s more like principles that people need to maintain. But I understand what your saying about how extra strength will help you in certain positions. Also that judo example you gave is more technique based. Practice the same throw over and over and you’ll get good at it.
I’m failing to see the difference. by practicing an internal form 10 times per day, you get good at it, no? Also, don’t think that jing can’t be applied to a throw… but, regardless of jing, how are you getting better? you are improving your mechanics. that’s what makes the throw work, just like it’s mechanics that make your internal style work.
While for internal practices, your whole body should develop the way of moving and can be applied to any qinna, lock, hit, etc., FWIW.
I would disagree there. I’ve seen people try to apply chin na on the ground and fail miserably. The principles don’t just transfer to every situation.
Internal and external are two completely different fields. Obviously you shouldn’t train internal arts the same way as you would train external arts. As SevenStar mentioned, repetition improves your mechanics and that is external “conditioning”. You can’t become proficient in internal arts by only repeating the movements. In internal arts, you should renounce the dualistic conception and combine your mind and body to function as a whole.
Originally posted by Sho
You can’t become proficient in internal arts by only repeating the movements. In internal arts, you should renounce the dualistic conception and combine your mind and body to function as a whole.
I would say that applies to external styles also.
Originally posted by SevenStar
I would say that applies to external styles also.
I was just pointing out the most fundamental distinctions. Of course your mind and body have to work together as a whole in external exercises, but the governing attitude is different.
I´m not into this at all but
I think there is a saying “Internal martial arts are from internal to external”.
Originally posted by Sho
I was just pointing out the most fundamental distinctions. Of course your mind and body have to work together as a whole in external exercises, but the governing attitude is different.
That may be the answer I’ve been looking for… what’s the governing attitude?