Internal training of strength

Here’s the topic boyles and ghouls:

‘Regular’ weight lifting builds defined muscles and measureable strength. For example I used to be able to bench around 200 pounds. I know this strength doesn’t translate into anything to do with martial arts but it’s measureable.(measurable?) Methods like Hung Gar also train strength and power in such ways with more of a focus on dynamic tension.

AFter being introduced to the internal arts I’ve stopped doing most of the above. One of the chi gung sets I do daily(sometimes weekly) is called the ‘8 brocade plus’. The person and book I learned this from touted that with deliberate movements and intense concentration on coordinating breath and movement in a relaxed way relaxation I’d be able to gain a different kind of strength than the above with weights and what not. This type of strength was described as strenth derived from the tendons instead of the muscle belly of the major muscle groups. I’m not sure if this chi gung set is having any effects on me besides to help rehabilitate old injuries. Can anyone list any ways that this ‘internal’ strength can be seen, felt, measured or even applied? Thanks in advance for replying.

I think weights is also internal strength regardless its strength right, you breath and you focus with intent. Heavy becomes lighter as you get stronger internally and externally.

My internal art uses a heavy to light weighted balls to train muscles and tendons as well chi!

hope this helps!

Garry

The best example I can give through my own experence is this one. I am not a big guy at all. I’m 5 "9 160 pounds. When I was really into Chen style moving push hands I trained with one teacher who really had internal strength. Greg Pinay I think I spelled his name wrong. He is a senior student of Master Ren. This guy is the same hight and about 20 pound lighter then me. Now I am very strong for my size and have moved guys 220 out of the circle many times. I must have pushed with Greg about 30 times studying with him. I never moved him out of the circle once. He is the only guy I have ever seen do this style of pushing without grunting and using all their energy to muscle someone out of the circle. If you looked at him you would never know how powerful this guy is.

I believe you need both type of training, physcial strength and internal energy type chi kung/breath.

weight training

I believe weight training is more detrimental than beneficial. The human body is supposed to move as a whole. One of the goals of martial arts is to teach you how to use your body as a single unit when you need. Weight training excercises one muscle or one muscle group at a time creating inbalances even if done “properly.” I put that word in quotes because there are so many theories about how to lift weights for maximum benefit. Weights should only be used to rehabilitate injuries.

Also, singling out muscles/joints causes injuries and leads to long term conditions like tendonitous. Overuse of single body parts causes injuries. The 8 Brocade Plus utilizes the whole body in all movements.

What I wanted to know was if this type of “internal” strength could be tested? How would I know if the chi gung is affecting me?

Sure, stand in santi (or any such stance). Relax but stretch your soft tissue outward (pengjin-like). Allow someone to press their bodyweight into your palm. While relaxed, support the weight easily. Get ahold of Mike Sigman’s “How to do Internal Strength” vids. They show some neat stuff.
BTW I assume you mean my pal, Tom Bisio.

cool

I don’t like to mention names of people but I’d have to say your guess is on target. :slight_smile:

I’ll try to check those vids out. Thanks for the info.

Lots of bad information here:

  1. Weight movements train your body to act as a whole. Look at lifts like the snatch or clean and jerk. Also lifts like the squat and deadlift. All require a huge amount of coordination and full body strength. The former requires large amounts of explosiveness and flexability as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVB_rQFSsEg (olympic workout)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-hShqLWGjg (clean and jerk 469 lbs @ 180lbs bw)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFZl86Qg8QY (old oly video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueUlvxLT9Cs (snatch)

  1. Tendons don’t make you stronger. Connective tissue does just that: connects things. Whether it be connecting muscle to bone or bone to bone, the tissue itself has no contractile capacity at all and is not responsible for movement. Only your muscles move your body. Nothing else. To be strong, you don’t need to be big. Look at the limitted weight divisions in olympic weightlifting and powerlifting. There are some small people putting up HUGE amounts of weight.

  2. IMO, internal power is derived from proper coordination between breath, movement, and structure. Stronger muscles will only help here as they will be able to give your body more support and move it quicker, which equals a more powerful strike.

Just because a smaller guy beat you means nothing. It just means that he had better technique. In BJJ, I was tossed around like a rag doll by a 16 year old kid who I outweighed me by 20 lbs. Similar experiences in wrestling, judo, and boxing as well. I’ve tapped guys and hold my own with guys who outweigh me by as much 80 lbs! I doubt he was using some mystical “internal strength” on me. To the heavier guys I dominated, I surely wasn’t using it on them. I was merely using my knowledge, proper mechanics, and leverage.

Find yourself a 5m long heavy waxwood spear and practice the form as relaxed as you can until you don’t feel the weight on it!

Cheers,
John

[QUOTE=Ford Prefect;707736]Lots of bad information here:[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, though, that’s part and parcel of the whole “internal training can make you strong without your having to actually exercise” schtick. So many sinophilic soft-heads think they can meditate their way to super-strength, and maintain their myths in the face of direct evidence to the contrary.

Without some kind of weight resistance, be it body weight or good ol’ iron, strength/power cannot be developed. Not my rule, blame God. :wink:

I agree with YiLiquan and ford!

John

Can you explain the difference in spear to body weight training or weighted ball workouts if you could cause i think they all can give you a full body workout even if you use Yi , chi etc as part of the training as well relaxed movements.

Garry

Greetings..

  1. Tendons don’t make you stronger. Connective tissue does just that: connects things. Whether it be connecting muscle to bone or bone to bone, the tissue itself has no contractile capacity at all and is not responsible for movement. Only your muscles move your body. Nothing else.
    I recommend some open-minded research.. Connective tissue is an equal partner in strength and movement, superior when understood and utilized properly.. connective tissue not only contracts, it expands, too.. something muscle cells can’t do.. connective tissue through its tendrils and fibrils is what determines cell shape and movement.. but, don’t take my word for it, i will repost some reference material:

http://www.intelligentbody.org.uk/PaulLeeReview.php

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3987/is_200212/ai_n9153887/pg_2

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3987/is_200104/ai_n8942183

http://theamt.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=143

http://www.hellerwork.com/archives/000923.html

http://www.backfixbodywork.com/Athletic_Performance_Enhancement_Pt_2.htm

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.php

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:bNy6ffdTXh0J:www.amatsu.co.uk/pdf/Tension,%2520Integrity%2520and%2520Form.pdf+Connective+tissue+tensegrity&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=25

Research into Connective tissue’s contribution to physical performance and overall health is as important as any other isolated system.. but, before posting assertions of what it is or isn’t, Google it.. the more information relative to this topic can be googled as: “Connective Tissue Tensegrity”.. general Connective Tissue info can be searched as just “Connective Tissue”, but it yields a lot of deep medical stuff..

Usually, posts like this are from people that have invested a lot into weight training.. and, if that’s how one chooses to limit their experience, so be it.. i respect and even admire those that can dedicate so much of their discipline to sculpt a powerful “appearance”, but.. there’s so much more than appearance.. I also admit that there a balance between strength training and Connective Tissue maintenance.. it is fine balance.. but, ultimately, science and experience reveals the connective tissue as a higher more useful tool in the goals of a dedicated martial artist.. This IS a relatively new area of research, in the past the Connective Tissue System was generally overlooked for exactly the same concepts as Ford states, “Connective tissue does just that: connects things”.. currently, it is clear that it does so much more.. check out the links, do your own searches.. the data is out there for everyone’s benefit..

Be well..

Lots of internal and external style’s has cross over theory on how to blow more power. The very very old Baji Quan and Long Fist training has qi gong pratice. Xin yi has weight lifting.

Horse stand is one of the root of all power training. And we all know all martial art stress about the improtents of horse stand.

I’m sure now days: very few people can train internal strength like 200 years ago. Too few know how… and it’s a load dreadful work.
so muscle plays a big part in power, however it’s really what type of muscle you want to develop. Lean, bulk, explosive, or even just for show:cool:

[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;707848]Greetings..

I recommend some open-minded research.. Connective tissue is an equal partner in strength and movement, superior when understood and utilized properly.. …[/QUOTE]

I do open minded research. I go out without any fixed opinions, and I let the evidence point to the correct answer. The correct answer is:

Connective Tissue has NO contractile capability. Whether you are doing a tai chi form or a barbell bench press, it is your muscles that are doing the movement. Your connective tissue is along for the ride.

I am familiar with tensegrity, Bob, as is anybody who has ever taken an intro to human physiology class. It is a very real thing. It does not however move the skeleton or give strength. If you want to talk about a limb snapping back into place from extreme ranges of motion due to stored elestic energy in connective tissue, that is one thing. The problem is that this energy only comes into play in extreme ranges of motion and odd positions. It is also weaker than the muscles acting upon it else the stored energy of connective tissue would hyperextend and grind your limbs or rip muscles in half.

If you want to get extremely technical, connective tissue does have contractile capability the same way a stretched out rubber band has contractile capability. That however has no real application in athletic movements, or movements that require speed and power. It is a semantic argument that holds no water in all current research.

That is not to say that connective tissue strength is not important. It is equally important as muscular strength since strong muscles and weak tendons/ligaments are a recipe for disaster just as the inverse is true. That is why both muscles and ligaments develop strength in concert with each other. It is also why movements that build large amounts of strength such as weight lifting, sprinting, and ballistic shock exercises like plyometrics, likewise build very strong connective tissue. Seeing as how connective tissue’s stored energy is weaker than that of a muscle and that it is very hard to build connective strength isolated from muscular strength workouts, one would ascertain that intense resistance training is the best way to go for both. If all you want is strong connective tissue, then you have the supplementary benefit of strong muscles as well.

To take a page from your book: I find people who post things like you are people who have invested a lot of time into esoteric practices to the exclusion of traditional strength training. They hope beyond hope that such practices will somehow lead them to the path of greater strength, and that is all they are left with: hope. If that is how the chose to spend their time, so be it. To each their own. That does not mean that they should dish out disinformation in an attempt to validate their practice. (BTW, I practice Tai Chi and am starting Ba Gua)

ultimately, science and experience reveals the connective tissue as a higher more useful tool in the goals of a dedicated martial artist..

For all those interested, this is statement born from an over active imagination. Science has in no way conlcuded anything of the sort. Every post I have made is firmly grounded in the latest and most accepted scientific knowledge surrounding athletic conditioning; This includes martial artists.

Perhaps Bob’s experience has revealed this to him, but as for scientists and the athletes/coaches who are supported by their research, not so much.

This IS a relatively new area of research, in the past the Connective Tissue System was generally overlooked for exactly the same concepts as Ford states,

Also, this is NOT a relatively new area of research. Some of the pseudo-scientific theories surrounding this old and time tested research are “relatively new”. Don’t take my word for it. Take the word of esteemed scientists the world over. This is a list of collective works that are used to train olympic champions and professional athletic standouts. This goes for track stars as well as boxers and wrestlers… (ie those competing in aspects of fighting at the highest possible level of competition)

Supertraining by Mel C Siff and Yuri Verkoshanky.

Quick Bio: Mel Siff is a PhD in physiology specialising in biomechanics, MSc (Applied Mathematics) awarded summa cum laude in brain research, BSc Honours in Applied Mathematics and a BSc (Physics, Applied Math). His serious involvement with the Internet began when he devised the unique concept of electronic education in sports science based on methods of propositional analysis pioneered by the ancient Grecian philosophers. This enterprise created the well-known weekly P&P’s (Puzzles & Paradoxes) and F&F’s (Facts & Fallacies) which he wrote for various user groups, including Sportscience, Physio, PTHER, FIT-L, Sport Psycho and Weights.

Yuri Verkhoshanksy is largely considered one of the best sports scientists EVER. He was largely responsible for the training methods that produced Soviet olympic champions during the zenith of their glory. Yuri is the one who did all the research and developed what is now known as “plyometrics” in the western world.

Beware. This book is not written with the layman in mind. It is a book aimed at fellow scientists in the field covering every aspect of physiology as it relates to biomechanics in sports performance.

Anyway, this is getting long. I dodn’t want to break it up into 2 posts. If anybody wishes to know more reading material or references for these ideas, I will post them.

There are multiple parts of internal strnegthening. There is proper body mechanics with muscle/connective tissue tension and energy work. I’ve never heard of 8 brocade plus. I’ve heard of 8 strands brocade. I don’t know if it’s just a name difference or if there are movement differences.

There are 2 ways to activate the energy points throughout the body: movement of joints and tension in body tissues. I’m not sure of the exact relationship between tension in bone tissues and energy points, but I would say that it is a factor. I’m just not sure how much a factor it is (tension placed on it by the tension of soft tissue).

Different energy exercises place different emphasis on how much soft tissue tension is placed on the body and which joints are moved to stimulate energy point usage. And working out also helps stimulate energy points, too. Joints are moved, soft tissue has varying degrees of tension placed upon them, however, I would stress stamina of muscles over increasing strength for MA, competition or survival training.

Now, while physical conditioning has a lot of benefits (even when considering the more material aftereffects of weight training), the energy, internal strengthening is really leaps and bounds ahead of it. Yes, there is proper body alignment that’s needed, but without the energy work, proper body alignment will only get you so far. It’s not just the tendons in the muscle bellies.

You want something that will help quantify internal strength training. Rehabilitation of old injuries is a prime example. Why? Because in developing your energy points, it enhances how your body works, like rebuilding a car engine into something faster, stronger and more powerful. It enhances your ability to heal, returning your old injuries into a previous form where it was healthier.

But, it isn’t just your ability to heal that gets enhanced, it’s everything. Every part of you. Strength, speed, stamina, your ability to think. How much it is enhanced is determined by how much effort you put into it. You are the best quantifier because of comparing how you are now with how you were before.

If you want something that’s right in front of your eyes, time yourself to see how much more you can do. Use the same type of euipment and record the differences in what you can do now and compare it to what you did before. If it’s something, like how well you hit, judge based on what happens to what you’re hitting, whether it’s a bag or something else..

One more thing. Although Mel Siff has recently passed away, his Yahoo training group that he had moderated still remains:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/

You can joing this group of which many members are highly respected scientific researchers and athletic trainers from the world over. You can let them know about what science has proven as far as science proving that “connective tissue as a higher more useful tool in the goals of a dedicated martial artist”. I’m sure they’d love to know just what “science” has done that.

Greetings..

To take a page from your book: I find people who post things like you are people who have invested a lot of time into esoteric practices to the exclusion of traditional strength training. They hope beyond hope that such practices will somehow lead them to the path of greater strength, and that is all they are left with: hope. If that is how the chose to spend their time, so be it. To each their own. That does not mean that they should dish out disinformation in an attempt to validate their practice. (BTW, I practice Tai Chi and am starting Ba Gua)
Well, i have done, and still do, quite a bit of work with weights and resistance.. it has only been in the last year that i have been able to make the break-through in awareness and do the research necessary that contradicts most of the “disinformation” about the Connective Tissue System (CTS).. but, i don’t intend to quibble about it, the data speaks for itself.. i’v dropped 15 pounds of counter-productive muscle, and gained much more strength , particularly where it matters most.. and, indeed, i have invested a lot of time in “esoteric” practices.. but, not to the detriment of sound physical exercise and dedicated Taiji practice..

Now, as cleverly worded as the post is, i assume that Ford is an intelligent being.. but, the evidence also suggests a lack of pragmatism:

They hope beyond hope that such practices will somehow lead them to the path of greater strength, and that is all they are left with: hope.
Until someone (in this case i refer to Ford) is open-minded enough to test, in a practical manner, the assertions of emerging research and equally reputable researchers.. it is easy to contradict things you haven’t given a pragmatic chance.. i am, of course, supposing that you haven’t actually gone through the disciplines that might reveal much of the info i am posting.. i understand, this limitation, i am occasionally prejudiced to my own detriment, too..

Also, this is NOT a relatively new area of research. Some of the pseudo-scientific theories surrounding this old and time tested research are “relatively new”. Don’t take my word for it. Take the word of esteemed scientists the world over. This is a list of collective works that are used to train olympic champions and professional athletic standouts. This goes for track stars as well as boxers and wrestlers… (ie those competing in aspects of fighting at the highest possible level of competition)
Now, i can cite many reputable scientists and many well-funded research grants by cutting-edge institutions.. and someone will call it “psuedo-science”.. similarly, someone can cite contrary perspectives and i could express my own rebuttals.. i.e.: "old-school, behind the times, self-validating, etc.. but, those interactions are largely counter-productive.. i’ve successfully played in both camps, and my cumulative experience persuades me that the CTS is a fundamental component of the “real” Taiji experience.. so, as is my nature, i try to pass this information along, without attaching any other value than an intention to get people to consider alternative power sources..

Now, more to the point: I do not “hope beyond hope that such practices will somehow lead them to the path of greater strength” as Ford surmises.. i evaluate evidence from many perspectives, test the evidence, and formulate sound opinions.. i’m 5’9" and 153 lbs., i spar, roll, and push with people on the far side of 200 lbs. with success that i have evaluated to be directly linked to the CTS and its disciplined use.. i train with weight and resistance, but.. not as a “muscle-building process”, rather a toning and balancing process in an attempt to find the most beneficial relationship between the neuro-muscular system and the CTS.. any concept that the CTS is isolated to ligament and tendon systems is a fundamental mis-understanding of the CTS.. it permeates every cell down to the DNA level.. any doubt that the CTS is responsible in a real and tangible proportion of strength, movement, health, and a myriad of other functions is equally flawed.. the CTS is much more than “along for the ride”, it is part and parcel “the ride”.. but, this is, actually, old news, as well..

But, this is becoming laborious.. as always, there is the wisdom of the third party observer to consider.. i have posted links, suggested searches (current scientific research), and related my own and other anecdotal accounts.. rather than do the “my sources are better than your sources” duel, i will rely on the analytical abilities of the others.. my own experiences have settled this issue, for me.. and, i began this research as a skeptic, having much the same opinion as Ford, go figure..:confused:

Be well…

Greetings..

One more thing.. we go at each other from differing perspectives.. respect given will be respect returned.. we will each stack our evidence to favor our preferences, and.. we will test each other’s mettle and keyboard skills.. but, ultimately, we will live according to the our individual experiences.. not much more will be accomplished, really.. well, maybe we will generate more interest and investigation in the subject.. then, others can form “their own opinions”..

Be wel…

science n. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Hi Guys,
Through my own personal scientific experience of strength training over the past 30 years, I have found this:
Strength training through classic resistance exercises that involve whole body muscle and joint recruitment patterns are an indispensable tool to providing a lasting health framework. They also teach over time a very detailed method of self-correcting one’s kinaesthetic sense. If one doesn’t do the lift with correct posture and intent, one hurts.

Internal methods that rely on ‘relaxed musculature’, a feeling for ’chi’, ‘peng path’, CTS, and the like are an advanced method that do produce an unusual degree of health and strength in my experience. However, I have also noticed a common tendency among practitioners of these methods to ‘rush it’, and since unlike the classic ‘external’ strength building methods there is no built in self-correcting mechanism, often the ‘results’ are mostly in their minds, not in their bodies.

I have come to think that the ‘external’ methods of strength building should be used like the ‘income earning’ portion of your life, when you are young through middle age.
Make a lot of ‘money’, and invest it wisely(a proper strength building foundation).
If you do it well then you can ‘retire’ and live off your investments while really having a lot of fun investigating the ‘other’ path (internal strength).

Plus by then maybe you’ll be secure enough to let others go there own way, no matter what they think of yours.

Peace

Like I said in my last post, if you are confident in this information, then join the Supertraining group and start a discussion on it.

Most participating members (as opposed to those who just like to read the conversation or pose a simple question) are either trainers who train the upper echelon of athletic talent across the world in all sports or PhD’ed researchers who work for universities around the world pushing the cutting edge of physiology and biomechanics research. It has historically been used as a forum for high level researchers and trainers to collobarate, share data, and challenge “doctrine”.

When you do so, you won’t feel the need the need to talk down to a random internet poster as a random internet poster as all group entries must be signed with your real name and location. The contributors there are some of the most accomplished in their field, and have no qualms about dishing the dirt. Again, join the group. See what live cutting edge researchers tell you in discussion instead of reading a book or internet article.

BTW, I love statements of conversion. They crack me up more than any other fallacious argument.