I was in wonderment if their are still traditional chinese gung fu players who believe that resistence training is negative for their martial art practice?
Is this thought process debunked or is it still a mainstay?
Not looking to have a troll-fest just looking for discussion.
traditional sifus lifted weights…they did it for strength, not bodybuilding.
My Sifu teaches traditional Taijiquan and Baguazhang.
He was also a competitive body builder and has many old pictures and trophys from his days as a competitor.
At the age of sixty and being considerably smaller than i am he can still pick me up of the ground and over his head like Im a child.
He actualy avidly encourages wieght lifting to increase power and is still active in using weights and resistance training himself.
My old Hung sifu used to sit in stance holding onto free weights at arms length and sholder height - then again he was scary as hell 
I personaly think the idea that weight training is bad is a crock, the only time it becomes bad is if its all you do and your joints and tendons are not as flexible - hence it starts to sacrifice speed. As long as flexibility is kept up and technique is still the priority then i cant see why anyone would not lift weights to increase strength.
I just tell people to lift in the moring, and do forms later to loosen back up. it works for me very well (When I do it)
yeah, there are. Check out the internal forum.
John Wang on ef mentioned carrying large rocks from one place to another as a form of whole body weight training. Sounds cool.
Count had shown me some pictures of traditional rock weights a while ago. Basically a large rock with a handle carved into it. They looked pretty bad ass.
In response to the original question, I’m pretty sure traditional cma never said weight lifting was bad, as long as it didn’t intrfere with flexibility, speed, etc.
Benefits of weightlifting are without equal in certain terms
Many arts had their primitive resistance training sets,yes,with weights.
Modern weightlifting/bodybuilding is a different thing,if recommended.
It seems it is not too long when bodybuilding arrived to China by mr.Weider.
However,the sport earned recognition and was liked.
Those who claim that it is not traditional to lift weights or do some type of strength training do not know what they are talking about. There have always been some type of strength training involved in the martial arts wether it was done with simple body weight training or they used external implements or gadgets to help them increase in strength.
However like stacey said lifting weights were only geared towards strength and not to make your body more attractive although there were some who have reached those results. I looked at an old picture of an old hung school from back in the day and some of those students were ripped.
Yeah, there definately are weight training methods in CMA, but I think many of these are intended to train a style’s particular method of power usage and not really to, say, build up your biceps like bodybuilding. Of course, that’s sort of obvious.
For example, in Baji we do an exercise holding containers (either empty, or filled with water and sand) in our hands in various ways (kinda hard to describe exactly). This is not to train the strength of our arms, hands or such, but rather to train our connection. The “lifting action” isn’t really felt in our hands, but rather where the upper and lower back connect.
A very interesting method of training and one that is also found (so I hear) in the Shaolin Tendon Changing Classic.
The way I see it, you want modern strength training for sports performance.
I also think the ancient methods were much more sport specific than a general weight lifting/strength development program. I would say it is best to do both on a rotateing cycle. This give the best of both worlds, as well as the variety that has proven to be the best way to develop the body.
You can also develop your own methods by just looking at the work you are trying to perform, and finding ways to add resistance to it, and from there even exercises to develop the specific action.
traditional kungfu training absolutely contains forms of weight training.
Stone lock training, weight rings, leg weights, rope weights (for wrists), and other forms of resistance training along with isotonic and isometric training.
Now, this sort of weight training isn’t exactly the same as what we see in what I’ll call olympic style lifting, but the principles and benefits are there.
I agree that Kung fu with no training with external is lacking something.
Remember too that heavy weapons are also a form of training with weight.
I’ve been working alot with the Kwan Dao I purchased from MAM over the last couple months and that thing is dang heavy! Prolly about 20 lbs or so. So, it’s about double the weight of the Kwan Dao that my sifu taught me with and is quite a challenge to get through the set with even after a couple of months.
I work with the rings (5 on each arm) twice a week also and for staff training I use only my heavy oak staff. This is given my forearms and wrists an excellent workout which in turn makes my punches more stable and my general strength level much higher.
Forms have all sorts of benefits from lengthening and strengthening muscles and tendons to increasing bone density (in some forms).
They(forms) can also be very aerobic. In the material I have been taught (Bak sil Lum and Southern Shaolin Black Tiger) there is both aspects in the forms.
Another thing I’ve started to do regularly is running. This benefits me aerobically and translates as more stamina and endurance in forms practice (especially the more zippy forms from the bak sil lum curiculum).
A kungfu system, if taught in completeness is in and of itself crosstraining. (Though I have added the running )
But I do agree that external devices such as weights will bring much to your practice and ultimately your ability.
cheers
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
The way I see it, you want modern strength training for sports performance.
what in the world is that supposed to mean?
[b]I also think the ancient methods were much more sport specific than a general weight lifting/strength development program. I would say it is best to do both on a rotateing cycle. This give the best of both worlds, as well as the variety that has proven to be the best way to develop the body.
[/B]
you’d meet debate with the variety thing. especially if you’re talking about strength training.
As far as the ancient methods, seems like you can only get so strong with them, as you would eventually turn what you are doing into an endurance exercise. for example, when I was in longfist, my sifu would work a heavy kwan dao - the light one was 20 lbs… I think the heavy one was like 50. eventually, he could wield the heavy one with lightning speed. from then on, working with that kwan dao worked muslce endurance moreso than strength because he couldn’t increase the resistance.
I´m with SevenStar.
[i]Originally posted by Royal Dragon
The way I see it, you want modern strength training for sports performance.
what in the world is that supposed to mean?[/i]
Reply]
As opposed to just getting big.
[i] I also think the ancient methods were much more sport specific than a general weight lifting/strength development program. I would say it is best to do both on a rotateing cycle. This give the best of both worlds, as well as the variety that has proven to be the best way to develop the body.
you’d meet debate with the variety thing. especially if you’re talking about strength training.[/i]
Reply]
Maybe, mabe not. But everything I have read states it is a proven fact. Also, in my own practice, I have found it to be true. That is why I do things in cycles as opposed to doing the exact same thing forever and never changing it. Don’t just do a single type of curl, do hammer curls, inverted curls or rotateing curls. Mx it up, do a variety.
As far as the ancient methods, seems like you can only get so strong with them, as you would eventually turn what you are doing into an endurance exercise. for example, when I was in longfist, my sifu would work a heavy kwan dao - the light one was 20 lbs… I think the heavy one was like 50. eventually, he could wield the heavy one with lightning speed. from then on, working with that kwan dao worked muslce endurance moreso than strength because he couldn’t increase the resistance.
Reply]
So, get an even heavier one then. I can make you a Kwan Do out of 1-1/2 inch thick steel plate with an over sized blade, and a solid iron shaft that weights 100 pounds if you want. Hell, I can make you a 1000, pound Kwan Do, all you have to do is give me enough steel.
Also, Muscular endurace is important, along with cardio endurance. If you are going up against an opponent of equal size, skill and strength, and you can keep going after he runs out of gass, your gonn’a Kick is A$$
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B][i]Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Reply]
As opposed to just getting big.
Okay, I thought you were goona go onto some spiel about why modern strength training would have no combat benefit.
Reply]
Maybe, mabe not. But everything I have read states it is a proven fact. Also, in my own practice, I have found it to be true. That is why I do things in cycles as opposed to doing the exact same thing forever and never changing it. Don’t just do a single type of curl, do hammer curls, inverted curls or rotateing curls. Mx it up, do a variety.
there’s part of your first mistake - curls… curls aren’t a “functional” strength exercise. when talking about strength training, you focus on compound exercises - bench, deads, squats, etc. the biceps will get worked to a minor extent while doing deads and pullups - no need for a specific curl exercise. And definitely no need for hammer curls AND concentration curls AND barbell curls AND preacher curls… the idea of hitting the muscle from various angles is a bodybuilding thing - more aesthetics than strength - you don’t need that - it’s not efficient.
As far as variety goes, when strength training, you don’t want to vary the exercises - you may want to vary the weight/reps used to produce the “shock” effect that you are talking about, but not completely change the exercise. Remember, when strength training, you aren’t training the muscles per se, but the nervous system.
As far as the ancient methods, seems like you can only get so strong with them, as you would eventually turn what you are doing into an endurance exercise. for example, when I was in longfist, my sifu would work a heavy kwan dao - the light one was 20 lbs… I think the heavy one was like 50. eventually, he could wield the heavy one with lightning speed. from then on, working with that kwan dao worked muslce endurance moreso than strength because he couldn’t increase the resistance.
Reply]
So, get an even heavier one then. I can make you a Kwan Do out of 1-1/2 inch thick steel plate with an over sized blade, and a solid iron shaft that weights 100 pounds if you want. Hell, I can make you a 1000, pound Kwan Do, all you have to do is give me enough steel.
that too, becomes inefficient. are you familiar with the rock pole? can you imagine a several hundred lb one? That’s good in theory, but really isn’t practical to have around, not to mention that not everyone has access to get those things. Anyone can get access to a bench and a squatting cage.
Also, Muscular endurace is important, along with cardio endurance. If you are going up against an opponent of equal size, skill and strength, and you can keep going after he runs out of gass, your gonn’a Kick is A$$
it’s very important. But, you can’t confuse the endurance exercises you are doing with strength, which some people do. just because you can do 100 pushups or hold a 20 min horse stance, that doesn’t mean your muscles are all that strong.
Internal Martial Arts also contain weight/stremgth training methods.
But they need to be done while applying all the principles of the specific art.
Since we try to minimise the usage of “li” this will also need to be applied to strength training may it be traditional methods or in the Gym.
Thus STANDARD weight training regimes are often frowned upon.
“there’s part of your first mistake - curls… curls aren’t a “functional” strength exercise. when talking about strength training, you focus on compound exercises - bench, deads, squats, etc. the biceps will get worked to a minor extent while doing deads and pullups - no need for a specific curl exercise. And definitely no need for hammer curls AND concentration curls AND barbell curls AND preacher curls… the idea of hitting the muscle from various angles is a bodybuilding thing - more aesthetics than strength - you don’t need that - it’s not efficient…”
While not jumping on the wagon of functional,non-functional? etc. strength types,I would like to point out that where ever you´re going it is beneficial to vary exercises for the best of benefit.
Additionally,as in bicep related discussion above,those different movements are there for a reason (this has to do with developing areas of the muscle that monotonic repetition of one single exercise would be unlikely to produce)
Just as an additional note.
"Since we try to minimise the usage of “li” this will also need to be applied to strength training may it be traditional methods or in the Gym.
Thus STANDARD weight training regimes are often frowned upon."
Sounds controversial if not ridiculous but whatever floats one´s boat.
what ill effect does it have? Are you saying that if you take two guys who train taiji, and one also does bench press and deads that his taiji won’t be as good? If so, why exactly?
Possible worm can alert.
SevenStar,
also see this discussion.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18758