Martial Art Weightlifting Mythos?

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21

Sevenstar.

The power generation differs.

Taiji uses whole body power, the whole body moves as one unit to generate power. Those are a fairly relaxed, circular and smooth movements.
Weight training tends to isolate muscle groups.

WE have weight/strength training like:
Pole shaking
Taiji Ruler
Taiji Pipe (Metal pipe filled with sand or stones)
Taiji Ball (Metal sphere size of a soccer-ball weighing 30kg)
etc.

But those are usually only trained AFTER a certain proficiency has been reached, as the taiji principles are applied to them.

Not saying that you can’t weight-train, just that to a certain degree it might be more difficult to master the art.

Power & Strength are good, but in the beginning you need to forget about them till you reached a certain level and than you can apply/use them.

Example:
We have one muscle-bound guy in our kwoon that did an external style.
It is a lot harder for him to relax and NOT rely on pure muscle strength than for people that never did strength training.

CHeers.

22

Originally posted by Former castleva

While not jumping on the wagon of functional,non-functional? etc. strength types,I would like to point out that where ever you´re going it is beneficial to vary exercises for the best of benefit.
Additionally,as in bicep related discussion above,those different movements are there for a reason (this has to do with developing areas of the muscle that monotonic repetition of one single exercise would be unlikely to produce)
Just as an additional note.

kinda… go push on a wall. go pull a log. go spar. go grapple. go climb a mountain. Now, while you are doing all of those, do it with only one muscle group… you can’t. For that reason, only doing a curl, leg extension, etc. is inefficient when compared to compound exercises. when your body performs some type of work, you are generally using multiple muscle groups. So, when you work out, why isolate them when that’s likely not the type of work you will be doing? like I said, you can gain strength that way, but it’s inefficient.

23

Re: Possible worm can alert.

Originally posted by Former castleva
[B]SevenStar,
also see this discussion.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18758 [/B]

thanks, I’ll check it out.

24

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]Sevenstar.

The power generation differs.

Taiji uses whole body power, the whole body moves as one unit to generate power. Those are a fairly relaxed, circular and smooth movements.
Weight training tends to isolate muscle groups.

WE have weight/strength training like:
Pole shaking
Taiji Ruler
Taiji Pipe (Metal pipe filled with sand or stones)
Taiji Ball (Metal sphere size of a soccer-ball weighing 30kg)
etc.

But those are usually only trained AFTER a certain proficiency has been reached, as the taiji principles are applied to them.

Not saying that you can’t weight-train, just that to a certain degree it might be more difficult to master the art.

Power & Strength are good, but in the beginning you need to forget about them till you reached a certain level and than you can apply/use them.

Example:
We have one muscle-bound guy in our kwoon that did an external style.
It is a lot harder for him to relax and NOT rely on pure muscle strength than for people that never did strength training.

CHeers. [/B]

strength training focuses on multiple muscle groups. As for relaxtion, that depends on the individual. At a recent judo tourney, I was so loose and relaxed, people were warming up, and I was just standing there, seemingly staring into space. People came up to me asking if I was nervous or scared. At my first kickboxing match, the medic took my blood pressure three times before the fight because the first two times, my pressure was so low that I should’ve been dead. I wanted to test myself a few months ago, so while my wife and I were at the store, I sat down at the blood pressure checker. when the reading was done, it said “ERROR”, which made me laugh. when my wife aksed why I laughed, I told her about the kickboxing story. I had her take her blood pressure, and I then I took mine without relaxing, just to make sure the machine wasn’t broken before we sat down.

25

“kinda… go push on a wall. go pull a log. go spar. go grapple. go climb a mountain. Now, while you are doing all of those, do it with only one muscle group… you can’t. For that reason, only doing a curl, leg extension, etc. is inefficient when compared to compound exercises. when your body performs some type of work, you are generally using multiple muscle groups. So, when you work out, why isolate them when that’s likely not the type of work you will be doing? like I said, you can gain strength that way, but it’s inefficient.”
As a philosophic argument,all nice and good.I can see this but it does not make sense to me.

26

what doesn’t make sense about it?

27

Taiji Ruler

Reply]
How is this a strength exercise? The Ruler is like a hlf an once tops. It’s basically a piece of 12" X 1-1/2 " of pine turned down to look like a small candle stick. It is a tool for helping beginners get basic internal body mechanics. There is like NO weight to it, and no way to use it to generate enough resitance to build anything, let alone strength.

"there’s part of your first mistake - curls… curls aren’t a “functional” strength exercise. when talking about strength training, you focus on compound exercises - bench, deads, squats, etc. the biceps will get worked to a minor extent while doing deads and pullups - no need for a specific curl exercise

Reply]
Anthing that works the muscle will develop strength. Obviously, exercises working mulitple muscle groups in tandem are better for useable strength development. I was basicaly siteing that perticular example to illistrate my perspective on variety. Instead of doing only one version of an exercise, do several. It could be any exercise, Curls just happen to be what was right off the top of my head.

As for the weight lifting and Taiji, I look at it like this, internal body mechanics have a power multiplying effect on external motion. So, even if your useing internal body mechanics, the more externally stronger you are, the bigger the multiplyer, and the stronger your going to be internally.

28

Perhaps if you clarify a bit.

“kinda… go push on a wall. go pull a log. go spar. go grapple. go climb a mountain. Now, while you are doing all of those, do it with only one muscle group… you can’t. For that reason, only doing a curl, leg extension, etc. is inefficient when compared to compound exercises.”
What does compound mean in this context?
A movement that is geared towards a single group (concentrated) is very important for it´s development.
You do not,as an example,solely bench press (how popular it may ever be among the adolescent) for pecs and triceps,this is not sufficient to train these muscles as a whole (source of observation being that of lifting)

“when your body performs some type of work, you are generally using multiple muscle groups.”
Y´yees.

“So, when you work out, why isolate them when that’s likely not the type of work you will be doing?”
To look at this from a bodybuilding approach,it is thought that proper form is important and should not be sacrificed.
Careful work should be given for each major group of tissue in order to develop it in balance with others,one should take care of this.To not take care of this can lead to unconcious “taking favourites” between muscles,underdeveloping muscles that one is not confident about and imbalance.
if one was to do a curl with a weight too heavy for one´s bicep (not a good idea) it would seem preferable to waste the movement by adding additional muscles into play (probably about any builder or lifter may find himself guilty of this in occasion) and wasting the movement.
Martial artist could argue that he does not need to train his hamstrings in detail because in kicking motion (like front kick) he does not use that muscle to extend his leg (again leading into nasty imbalance,considering that every muscle holds an opposing muscle/antagonizer (possible spelling?) )
This is also likely to show up “in nature”.

29

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B]

Reply]
Anthing that works the muscle will develop strength. Obviously, exercises working mulitple muscle groups in tandem are better for useable strength development. I was basicaly siteing that perticular example to illistrate my perspective on variety. Instead of doing only one version of an exercise, do several. It could be any exercise, Curls just happen to be what was right off the top of my head.[/b]

re hash of what I said earlier:

kinda… go push on a wall. go pull a log. go spar. go grapple. go climb a mountain. Now, while you are doing all of those, do it with only one muscle group… you can’t. For that reason, only doing a curl, leg extension, etc. is inefficient when compared to compound exercises. when your body performs some type of work, you are generally using multiple muscle groups. So, when you work out, why isolate them when that’s likely not the type of work you will be doing? like I said, you can gain strength that way, but it’s inefficient.

30

however, to re-iterate, variation isn’t the way to go in terms of strength training.

31

OK

32

for further info on that, look into periodization. Basically, periodization is a gradual increase in weight until you hit a stopping point, but then you start over at a point higher than where you began your last cycle. that’s the type of variety you want.

33

“for further info on that, look into periodization. Basically, periodization is a gradual increase in weight until you hit a stopping point, but then you start over at a point higher than where you began your last cycle. that’s the type of variety you want.”
Yes.

34

OK

35

i’m not reading this thread right now, but it’s my opinion the hate on bodybuilders from tma’s came about dissing western ways of fighting ala john wayne…anyone know when this issue first arose?.

36

Does such a hate exist diego?
If it does,all too bad.
Sounds very,very concerning. :cool:
What do you base this on?

“dissing western ways of fighting ala john wayne”
At here I must note that looking back to the past I can find myself guilty of taking sides with east/west issues which does not make much sense.All of the basis for this to be found in cultural bias and ignorance.
Now it is obvious that there is a world to explore in western ways of martial arts.If someone uses the actor John Wayne for his/even her reflection of western fighting arts,there is something missing out there.
It is a bit amusing to actually write on this but I´ll give it a try.

37

Interesting conversation.

IronFist

38

Originally posted by Former castleva
[B]Does such a hate exist diego?
If it does,all too bad.
Sounds very,very concerning. :cool:
What do you base this on?

“dissing western ways of fighting ala john wayne”
At here I must note that looking back to the past I can find myself guilty of taking sides with east/west issues which does not make much sense.All of the basis for this to be found in cultural bias and ignorance.
Now it is obvious that there is a world to explore in western ways of martial arts.If someone uses the actor John Wayne for his/even her reflection of western fighting arts,there is something missing out there.
It is a bit amusing to actually write on this but I´ll give it a try. [/B]

ACCORding to my understanding americans used to fight like jon wayne until karate came around and peeps started springing eyeballs out of sockets and shredding groins etc…uno meet me at the parking lot three oclock type steez where they square off and have a manly bout of boxing…i always lol’d at that way of thinking like fight fare etc…when he falls let him get up and have another round…once guys like the hell’s angels started taking up karate, by the 60’s peeps were getting boot-****ed…and that progressed to now kids don’t even scrap they will just shotgun your azz…so it’s my opinion the tma’s who dissed beefcake-jon wayne styles of fighting has been around for awhile, such as a article i read about kungfu pirates…it relayed about their was this noble british soldier gentleman in china on a boat when the pirates raided the ship…the nobleman stood his ground, drew his sword like a gentleman as one chinese pirate with a mix of monkey style and bjj proceeded to drop to the ground tackling his legs while climbing up the nobleman theirby severing his testicals with the dagger the pirate held in his mouth throughout the inital tackle.

so their has always been this issue of whitey fights stupid and his weight training methods are not as good for martial artists as the traditional weight training methods.

i gotta take a **** so this posts thought is erratic, but i know what i say to be true, i’m just curious when it started in america as bodybuilding hasn’t been around that long.

point…whites fight stupid pretty much in general…take a native savage warrior give him a knife take a champion english gentleman fighter and the savge will eat the whiteboys intestines…ie whites became pretty stupid in their hand to hand combat methods sitting fat off the pig with their rifles watchtowering over the slaves…now the vikings they would have fought like the natives and the chinese pirates…either way it all relates to the issue that bodybuilding will make your kungfu tighta$$ compared to the tradtional training methods which build raw power.

follow me or is this post to scattered…:smiley: gotta go pee!!!
ciao

39

i meant give a savage a knife and a nobleman a knife and the savage will win because he doesn’t stand their and just box like those retarded collonialists who sit their and reload their singleshots while the guys on the other field get their turn lol

40

“ACCORding to my understanding americans used to fight like jon wayne until karate came around and peeps started springing eyeballs out of sockets and shredding groins etc…uno meet me at the parking lot three oclock type steez where they square off and have a manly bout of boxing…i always lol’d at that way of thinking like fight fare etc…when he falls let him get up and have another round…once guys like the hell’s angels started taking up karate, by the 60’s peeps were getting boot-****ed… …”
I´m not really following you in your post,brave it is though.
I assume you are referring to such things as rules,cultural approach to brawling etc. I wonder how this is linked to actual combat and all that you have said about supposed beliefs of others that there originally was no link to either.
Arts of karate and judo ruled in America during 60´s as far as I remember,being somewhat “new” in there and as a half-hearted counter-argument I should note that the myth of all Asians knowing martial arts developed. :smiley:

“such as a article i read about kungfu pirates…it relayed about their was this noble british soldier gentleman in china on a boat when the pirates raided the ship”
What?
As we must both be “having fun” to a degree,I must note that China totally kicked arse in the opium war. :wink:

“point…whites fight stupid pretty much in general…take a native savage warrior give him a knife take a champion english gentleman fighter and the savge will eat the whiteboys intestines…ie whites became pretty stupid in their hand to hand combat methods sitting fat off the pig with their rifles watchtowering over the slaves…now the vikings they would have fought like the natives and the chinese pirates…either way it all relates to the issue that bodybuilding will make your kungfu tighta$$ compared to the tradtional training methods which build raw power.”
I do not know where you are coming from and how you got here lol.
I might be too tired to not have a laugh now.

:slight_smile: