Sorry if this topic has been done to death but I need some advice. Over the last year or so the focus of my training has shifted more towards bagua/tai chi, from an initial background in wing chun. I would like to have the opinion of the forum’s internal stylists on the use of weights, is it recommended or not? I gave up weight use and focused instead upon standing and internal forms, I felt looser and more relaxed but began to lose muscle tone. Help please folks.
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both internal and external styles use different methods to train the muscles. for this reason alone, i would not recommend weight training.
weight training is also prone to bulk you up and encourage the larger, outer muscles, while neglecting the inner muscles. it is much better to train in postures to even out muscles.
when you train in postures, you are inadvertantly keeping up the tone and shape of your more used and strong muscles, while strengthening any that are not very strong yet. in this way, if you consistantly train, you will even out the shape of your body quite easily, and obtain the sort of muscular power you need for the internal styles.
to keep the muscles you have now, just train in postures enough. if they start to disappear or something, it is because they are not used (and thus not needed) for your styles, and therefore pretty useless for you. if you want real power, just train in the postures, and you will get it, regardless of what happens to your muscles. if you are a bit thinner, you will have more power than you ever did before by training in those postures.
Weights
If you like doing weight training then fair enough, however it will not improve your internal training and if done too much it will slow down your internal development. Internal development will set about (especially through standing postures) to re-condition the muscles by loosening out long-term blockages and Qi stagnation again usually by standing postures but also mostly through relaxation too. By tensing the muscles up, whilst also in your life engaging in weight traing, you may run the risk of constantly undoing all the internal work with the weight training. Muscle mass is probably the biggest hinderance for internal stylists when you think about it. It requires more blood saturation to the muscles and that in turn draws necessary Qi away from its vital organ use elsewhere in the body.
LOL - plasticsquirrel is a cool name, i think anything with squirrels generaly makes me laugh.
i don’t see too much problem with weight training, just as long as you mix it with a bit of aerobic work so that the muscles stay lean, and make sure the weights aren’t too heavy, use the weights to train for endurance if you don’t want to bulk up.
“satisfaction loses,and humility gains”
If you’re really serious about your internal arts, than you have to quit your weight training or cut it down to once every 2 weeks or something. Weight training and internal training are two very different things. When you correctly train with neijia principals, you’re trying to unlearn everything and move in a different matter. Weight training will not help that at all.
There are weight training exercises in neijia like the iron ball or heavy weapons, but that’s way way after you learned the basics.
Of course, I am a bad example since I also do weight training since I love it way too much to give it up, but I do realized that in some day, I would have to eventually give it up.
Hmmm..well I’m very low level in internal arts…but my gut feeling is that weight training basically has nothing to do with internal arts. It can be counterproductive if you mistake muscular strength for internal strength. But let me ask you a question. If you have internal strength then why would you want to develop external strength? They both achieve the same thing (ie strength), they are just mechanically different. Are you putting your eggs in both baskets? I train both internal and external but the external is mainly for cardiovascular and muscle tone plus it is easier to apply. If you want to train weights to look good, well you might as well quit the MA’s because just because you are good fighter doensn’t mean your going to be the men’s fitness poster boy. In fact I’m a bit skeptical of people in MA’s that are superbuff…Van Damage anybody?
Fu-Pow
I don’t see what the issue is. Weight-training, contrary to what everyone seems to think, does not necessarily make you larger, nor tenser, nor less flexible. If you want power, you’re better off spending your time on your internal exercises, assuming you have a basic level of fitness. If you like weight-lifting for the sake of weight-lifting, do it properly and in moderation and you should be fine.
Not disagreeing with you Braden, but I might add that depending on the type of weight training you do you can get bulky and less flexible. There are three types of training…
1-Low weight, high rep. This is mainly for toning and burning fat.
2-Middle weight, middle rep. This is for building muscle mass.
3-High weight, low rep. This is for building strength.
Most external MA’s don’t seek to train isolated muscle groups but rather train groups of muscles together. So you might see excercises that are designed to train a larger group of muscles without the use of weights. For example, in most external arts you see pushups. These train a variety of muscles to work together (ie the triceps, chest, lats, together). These are for most people a middle weight, middle rep excercise, ie mass building. So you might see in some schools jumping pushups which put a larger load on the muscles and are more of strength building excercise.
Internal arts are a little different in that they ask ALL the muscles of the body to work together, not just groups of muscles. The muscles and bones align in such a way that you create a path to the ground. So really it is the ground that is doing the “work.” In internal arts you see excersises that are designed to test this ground path (eg the Taiji heavy iron sphere) but is not really designed to build muscle.
So it seems like too much lifting weights might be counterproductive to internal goals (ie body unity.)
Fu-Pow
Of course some weight-lifting can reduce flexibility and add bulk. And some can’t. So it’s silly to generalize.
Internal arts do NOT ask all of the muscles of the body to work together. This is just the party line. It’s very clear that many muscles you specifically want to cut out of the equation in the internal arts (biceps, trapz), whereas others are extremely important (triceps, lats, intercostals).
“So it seems like too much lifting weights might be counterproductive to internal goals” … “Internal arts are a little different in that they ask ALL the muscles of the body to work together”
So how on earth can having your muscles work better be counterproductive to getting your muscles to work better?
Certain weight-lifting practices are clearly detrimental to internal development. For internal development, internal development exercises are clearly superior to weight-lifteing exercises. But it does not follow from this that all weight-lifting exercises are detrimental to internal development.
weight training and internal arts
Thanks for all of the feedback folks, I’ve certainly got plenty to think about. I think that for the forseeable future I’m going to stick to standing postures, forms and as much circle walking as I can manage. I cycle to work every day so I still get a c.v. work-out. Thanks again, and happy training.
Well, weight training has health benefits like it increases bone density and raises your metabolism. It also increases your muscluar strength and endurance. I do it for those reasons and it’s extremely fun. Besides, what’s wrong with trying to improve one’s physcial appearance anyway?
1-Low weight, high rep. This is mainly for
toning and burning fat.
No, this is just endurance work. It won’t burn fat. You can’t tone with just weights alone. It takes lowering your body fat and maintaining or increasing your muscle size to be “toned.” The low weight, high rep is for toning has been proven a myth now along with spot reducing.
2-Middle weight, middle rep. This is for building muscle mass.
Maybe. But to get muscle hyperthropy is to increase volume and eat a lot. Especially protein entriched foods.
3-High weight, low rep. This is for building strength.
True, but it can also build muscle if volume is increased.
Also, deadlifts, snatches, and cleans just about work every muscle in your body. Of course, there is a lot of tension in the msucles which isn’t a good thing for your internal development. Weight training also makes you keep your lumber arch, while in internal arts you want to straighten that out (not forcefully, just relax that part to straighten it).
I like internal arts and weight training, but I have to give up weight training if i want to improve my internal strength more. But it’s so hard to do that, and besides, I don’t have a good teacher around to motivate me to do that yet.
Braden
You act as though you are disagreeing with me, but in fact you just reiterated what I just said.
Fu-Pow
I guess except for the direct quotes of yours that I directly disagreed with, yeah.
It is neccessary during proper internal energy training to abstain from lifting heavy weights, if a beginner.
Fu-pow said
But let me ask you a question. If you have internal strength then why would you want to develop external strength? They both achieve the same thing (ie strength), they are just mechanically different.
Show me one internal master who can bench 400lbs or who can squat 500lbs?
Iron
Wow. I find it more than a little disappointing to read the variety of ignorant nonsense being given so dogmatically on this thread. Subjective opinions are fine, but some points of view are being offered as if they represented legitimate scientific knowledge of muscle physiology when they clearly do not.
HHmm
Chris can you elaborate a little more on your response please???
Basically for internal arts I think it is safe to say that excessive weight training WILL impair your internal development. It’s as simple as that. One does not need weight training to condition the muscularture of the body, one can achieve this from standing postures and low stance form too. Its relative really, if you want to train for internal development one must apply internal methodology, and vice versa for external training and development. This is a difference betwen the wo and both do not necessarily converge always.
weight training
from experience pushups and weight training make the 8 mother palms more difficult to hold(not able to train as long) and you will lose a considerable amount of flexibilty in the shoulders making any striking or piercing method less fluid and slower at thet. Weights train primary muscle groups and holding postures train secondary muscle groups. 
IronFist
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> Show me one internal master who can bench 400lbs or who can squat 500lbs? [/quote]
Can’t, but there are stories about internal masters demonstrating incredible feats of strength. Two examples off the top of my head are Feng Zhiquiang catching a 1200lb piece of machinery at work. He wasn’t sure how he managed to catch it. Later he was scolded by his boss for taking such a risk.
Chen Fake, Master Feng’s teacher, reportedly broke a 3 inch floor tile with his heel while demonstrating at a Beijing university.
There are probably tons of other stories, but these are just a couple.
But anyways I think you missed my point.
Internal strength and external strength use two different sets of muscles and mechanics to achieve strength. It doesn’t mean they are the same thing.
Fu-Pow
Braden
Well, actually you never quoted me. But I will quote you.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> Internal arts do NOT ask all of the muscles of the body to work together. This is just the party line. It’s very clear that many muscles you specifically want to cut out of the equation in the internal arts (biceps, trapz), whereas others are extremely important (triceps, lats, intercostals).
[/quote]
One part moves all parts move.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>So how on earth can having your muscles work better be counterproductive to getting your muscles to work better?
[/quote]
What do you mean by better? By making them stronger? How, by isolating the muscle and working it individually? By working larger groups of muscles? How do you make a muscle work BETTER?
Or is it the collective effort of all muscles to a unified whole? This seems to be the goal of internal arts, at least Taiji.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Certain weight-lifting practices are clearly detrimental to internal development. For internal development, internal development exercises are clearly superior to weight-lifteing exercises. But it does not follow from this that all weight-lifting exercises are detrimental to internal development.
[/quote]
What are certain weight lifting excercises. It is obvious you are talking out of your a$$. Using the word “certain” is a half-assed way of answering. It gets you off the hook later if someone proves you wrong.
Fu-Pow