Kumkuat
Where did I ever mention spot reducing? If someone is fat you obviously can’t see definition it doesn’t mean that they are gaining tone.
High weight, low rep= strength training
Middle weight, low rep, explosive rep= strength training
Middle weight, middle reps is still the best for gaining mass. Ask a body builder.
Fu-Pow
i just used spot reduction as an example.
“Well, actually you never quoted me.”
Um, did you read my post? Very clearly I did.
“One part moves all parts move.”
Is not the same as using all your muscles equally or in some extrinsically valid definition of the term ‘in a balanced manner.’
“How do you make a muscle work BETTER?”
Contraction speed, recruitment of fibers, metabolism, innervation - there are some very concrete definitions to the ‘betterness’ of a muscle. As to HOW to ‘exercise’ this functions - this is a very broad field of inquiry whose practical side you could call ‘weight-bearing exercises.’
“Or is it the collective effort of all muscles to a unified whole? This seems to be the goal of internal arts, at least Taiji.”
No it isn’t, as I’ll say again. For example, the trapezius muscle, which is rightly used in many other kinds of movement, is not used in internal style movement.
“It is obvious you are talking out of your a$$. Using the word “certain” is a half-assed way of answering.”
No, it’s obvious that I know what I’m talking about because I refuse to make stupid generalizations. ‘Weight-lifting practices’ encompasses as wide a variety of practices as the term ‘martial art practices.’ You simply cannot generalize to ‘weight-lifting practices’. Some make you stiffer, some make you looser. Some make you less flexible, some make you more flexible.
“What are certain weight lifting excercises.”
For example, trap-lifts or ‘shrugs.’
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> Is not the same as using all your muscles equally or in some extrinsically valid definition of the term 'in a balanced manner [/quote]
Where did I say that? If I did it was in regards to external arts, not internal arts. Large groups of muscles working in concert, strengthening of these muscle groups. This is more goal of the external.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> Contraction speed, recruitment of fibers, metabolism, innervation - there are some very concrete definitions to the ‘betterness’ of a muscle. As to HOW to ‘exercise’ this functions - this is a very broad field of inquiry whose practical side you could call ‘weight-bearing exercises.’
[/quote]
All true, but this is not really the goal of internal arts. Internal arts goal is peng. Which is the unification of movement to create a path to the ground. At least thats a big part of it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> No it isn’t, as I’ll say again. For example, the trapezius muscle, which is rightly used in many other kinds of movement, is not used in internal style movement.
[/quote]
Who’s making stupid generalizations now?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>You simply cannot generalize to ‘weight-lifting practices’. Some make you stiffer, some make you looser. Some make you less flexible, some make you more flexible.
[/quote]
I never said anything about flexibility. If you read back you started that discussion. I never said weight lifting makes you more inflexible. Furthermore, flexibility is not as central to internal arts as it is to external arts. So even if weight lifting did make you inflexible, that wouldn’t be the factor that was holding back internal development.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>‘Weight-lifting practices’ encompasses as wide a variety of practices as the term ‘martial art practices.’ [/quote]
This statement makes it obvious that you are a total moron. While weight lifting practices they seek one of several goals, strengtening, tone or gain in mass. And while weight lifting excercises may differ they all work on the same skeletal muscle tissue, which varies very little from person to person. So in essence there are very concrete ways to build muscle, or tone it or strengthen it. And there are right and wrong ways to do it.
Martial arts practices on the other hand, are highly subjective practices, that can vary from style to style from their vary foundations. These styles developed based on attitude, body type, height, reaction times etc.
I’m sticking to what I originally said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> but my gut feeling is that weight training basically has nothing to do with internal arts. It can be counterproductive if you mistake muscular strength for internal strength. But let me ask you a question. If you have internal strength then why would you want to develop external strength? They both achieve the same thing (ie strength), they are just mechanically different. Are you putting your eggs in both baskets? I train both internal and external but the external is mainly for cardiovascular and muscle tone plus it is easier to apply. If you want to train weights to look good, well you might as well quit the MA’s because just because you are good fighter doensn’t mean your going to be the men’s fitness poster boy. In fact I’m a bit skeptical of people in MA’s that are superbuff…Van Damage anybody [/quote]
Fu-Pow
“Where did I say that?”
-“Or is it the collective effort of all muscles to a unified whole? This seems to be the goal of internal arts, at least Taiji.”
I paraphrased in anticipation of potential arguments. The paraphrasing wasn’t necessary without those arguments.
“All true, but this is not really the goal of internal arts.”
We agree. I never said it was.
“Who’s making stupid generalizations now?”
You still.
“I never said anything about flexibility.”
You never said anything specific at all, so it’s hard to reply to specifically; so that was just one example. You can insert just about any other property in place of ‘flexibility.’
“This statement makes it obvious that you are a total moron.”
Thanks for the personal attack. Always enriches the conversation so much.
“While weight lifting practices they seek one of several goals, strengtening, tone or gain in mass.”
Or gain in endurance. Or gain in flexibility. Or gain in resilience. Or loss of fat. Or change of metabolism. Or increase in resistance to shearing/stretching/other pressures. Or changes in innervation. Or changes in hormonal balance. Or… well, I could go on, shall I? Moreover, the ways in which to approach these multitude of goals is what is truly diverse.
“And there are right and wrong ways to do it…Martial arts practices on the other hand, are highly subjective practices.”
I wonder if you ever considered the possibility that your perception of depth is directly proportional to your depth of exposure.
What you originally said is just as reidiculous as what you later said.
“They both achieve the same thing (ie strength).”
Amazing that you can define ‘strength’ as a single absolute. But then again, you argument falls or stands on your belief in old stories of qigong masters lifting several tonnes effortlessly.
“If you want to train weights to look good, well you might as well quit the MA’s because just because you are good fighter doensn’t mean your going to be the men’s fitness poster boy.”
That’s like saying… if you want to play guitar, you might as well quit MA’s, or if you want to study biochemistry, you might as well quit MA’s. In other words, it’s completely ridiculous.
My knowledge of the pro’s and con’s of weight lifting while training martial arts is limited, but I have experimented a little with a couple different types and would like to express my opinions here.
My own teacher once scolded me saying that I should not do forms with weights on my arms and legs because this works the wrong muscle groups for those movements and several other reasons. After a brief period of disagreement, I came to believe this myself. Put a weight on your wrist, extend your arm in front of you and tell me which muscles it works. It does not work the striking muscles enough to bother, although the muscles used in holding your arm up can be worked well. I did not examine every movement, so there may be a few where this is not the case, but generally, the muscles are not being worked enough this way or other muscles entirely are being worked.
I was told that if I wanted to lift weights, I should do exercises that emulated striking to work my striking muscles, like the bench press. Well, I first tried pushups, but got no results. So I bought a home gym. I noticed a marked increase in strength, but a loss in mobility, flexibility, and a major decrease in my power for fa-jing. Certain postures became almost impossible for me to hold. For instance, holding the eighth posture in the Bagua qigong became a superhuman feat for me, as I could not hollow my chest enough to put the backs of my arms together. And the walking posture for the eighth palm change became excruciating.
This was simply unacceptable. I understand that some things will be difficult, but things that previously were okay becoming impossible? Unacceptable. The home gym got sold.
So I experimented with “natural” weight lifting. and other exercises for muscle development. Chopping wood, carrying things, that sort of stuff. I found an acceptable middle ground. My physical strength improved, and I did not lose any internal power.
I would suggest that anyone interested at least experiment with this. I believe that for internal power to manifest, the muscles have to be healthy and strong, but there is a way to do it without sacrificing the internal.
A friend of mine who does Uechi Ryu Karate showed me an exercise a few years ago that he claimed seriously improved power. He carried a heavy cement block in each hand. I do almost this same thing for a few minutes a day if I get a chance, carrying 50 lb. buckets of chlorine or bromine around for a few minutes. Really works your back muscles, the ones that power strikes.
Braden
Let’s not beat around the bush here. You are just as insulting, you just don’t come out and say it. Obviously, I wouldn’t result to name calling unless I felt someone was doing the same to me.
Its called passive-agressive behavior. You are agressive, you attack my arguments in a very insulting “I’m-way-better-than-you-way”.
Then when pressed for further information you imply that it is beyond my comprehension.
Your whole attitude stinks. Your obviously not here to learn anything or even to teach anything. You are simply here to prove to everybody how right or smart you are.
However, when pressed for specifics you simply say oh its something I can’t show you over the internet.
I’ve tried to have productive dialectics with you but ultimately you come off as mister snob-fobbish.
Its much easier to sit and pick apart and criticize what people say than to contribute anything of your own experience or knowledge.
Get a life.
Fu-Pow
Sam Wiley
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Although I might not always agree with you, you come across as a real guy.
Fu-Pow
Although I personally do mostly calisthenics, I think that the focus of any type of strength training (for martial arts) is to gain “functional strength”. I suppose this is what Sam Wiley was alluding to?
Also, I do feel that strength training is a part of Internal Martial Arts. Perhaps not in the same manner as weight lifting, but I think there is something called Nei-Gung?
Just some thoughts from the cheap seats…
KG
Fu-Pow:
I’m truly sorry you got that impression. I’m afraid that responding literally to that post and explaining my writing/argumenting style, as well as backing it up with examples, will only reinforce your impression of me. I also feel that simply assuring you are wrong about me will also be fruitless. So I will say simply that I am sorry you feel that way, and that I wish you the best.
[This message was edited by Braden on 11-05-01 at 05:43 PM.]
Couple of points from my experience. The training in internal arts is extremely hard if the requirements are really met. I haven’t met anyone yet who is highly skilled that advocates using wts.
Look at some of the things that the Chen and other stylist do that gives them the legendary power of TC. Wt training while good for many other things but it will not help you here.
The TC idea of power has many components that I think are not really understood by many people. This is why I think many people waste time training in other ways to try and capture the power they seek. If this is what there after.
One aspect might be the idea of uprooting or pushing an opponent.
you must have develped a couple of differnt abilities to really do this but I will only address the ability of change.
The change that I talk of is the ability to drop all power in your hand or arm. As the opponent falls forward the tendency is for the person to move back to stop the fall. his/her root is broken and is now floating.
This is the time that you follow the opponents power and add your power. This is what many see in the magazines articles where the person looks like their flying back. This kind of push or uproot feels like no force is being used because most of it you supplied.
It is not the ability to shove some one so hard that they fly off their feet and are thrown back. This would be the use of Li (strength) while some tech is involved it is not the same as chin. (Internal force).
IMHO
Unless you had a good understanding of this concept I would think that it would be very difficult to train moving things one way and then told that you have to do it another way. You might know what you want to do, but your body would tend to follow the other idea.
bamboo leaf
Great response!!! I think that there are very few people that really understand Internal Arts as well. Unfortunately, I’m not one of them. Although I’m getting at the root of it, piece by piece. Definitely not simple though. And I think your right, you can fall into traps along the way, especially if you start throwing in your own training methods (ie lifting weights). Only a really good teacher can point you in the right direction when you get stuck. And if there’s one thing that I’ve learned in my own research its that most of the literature out there on internal arts is either totally cryptic (ie the Taiji classics) or just plain wrong (ie Mantak Chia).
And as to the internal arts having great strength I think you are right about the “additive power.” That is one way to disable your opponent. But also it is my understanding that high level internal stylists have really nasty penetrating strikes that are also a result of internal training. Any thoughts on this?
Granted you won’t see any Taiji masters entering power lifting contests anytime soon.
Fu-Pow
“But also it is my understanding that high level internal stylists have really nasty penetrating strikes that are also a result of internal training. Any thoughts on this?â€
There are many here that could probably explain it better or deeper.
These are my thoughts at this time.
The process is the same only difference is that the opponents whole body is not able to change so instated of pushing itself away the body actually allows the force to come inside.
In TC we talk of the cotton fist and palm. I think the fist or hand or any part of the body of the TC player contains the idea of very small circles. Soft and hard are the product of the YI (mind), I can place my fist against the opponent and feel his/her hardness. Where there is no hardness its empty I follow very quickly. So in this case only the local part of the opponents body relaxes, like finding a small hole and sending a lot of energy through it. Again it’s not the case of punching the hard part or attempting to move the hard part. This is why it’s said that the power of TC will not work on men made of stone, wood, or metal.
The word penetrating means that the energy has gotten past the hard outer layer of muscle instead of compressing it. The opponent’s body has soft(empty) and hard (full) parts that most people are unaware of. In our practice of TC we seek to unify the body in a natural way. The absorption of energy is done with the whole body, much later this can be done using only the mind.
This accounts for the stories that are told of things bouncing off of TC masters and also people hurting them selves hitting TC exponents. Again not easy to do.
bamboo leaf
weights
but do iron weights have qi?
if you are planning on fighting with inanimate objects then go ahead and get buff{ 
sorry, I’m being silly, but it’s true!
One of my favorite things about internal training is that you get scrawny and exceedingly soft. It always throws off my weight lifting friends when we spar. (refer back to double-weightedness)
But seriously,
Personally, I believe that anything in moderation is good for your training. For instance, I have never heard of an internal master advocating running, but who can argue that if done properly, cv excercise can make you a better fighter?
(especially 5 or 6 minutes into a brawl…)a
Many “internal” kung fu guys who can hit much harder than their bodies indicate actually have muscles in all the right places.
When I first met my sifu, he looked like a typical short Chinese guy who didn’t look “athletic” in the least bit. But he could HIT!!!
Now that I’m well into training with him, I’ve started to notice his massive forearms, his powerful thighs, his powerful back, his strong hips, his beefy calves, everything. I’m also starting to notice it in MYSELF as I progress in our style.
Eventually, I’ll be put on weight training designed specifically to strengthen me in a way that I can hit harder.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Now that I’m well into training with him, I’ve started to notice his massive forearms, his powerful thighs, his powerful back, his strong hips, his beefy calves, everything. [/quote]
So, did you ask him out?
LOL!
weight
you do develop some wierd muscle groups
especially in your legs
(the mystery horse stance muscle)
but believe you me you’re not gonna get cut and polished from just taiji
I think if you’re into the greek god look and want to look like a movie star, then weights are for you, but many of the taiji and kung fu people I have met don’t develop and don’t need that type of muscular strength to drop you with a single palm.
on a final note
I have found that excessive abdominal weight training can cause tension in that area, even stagnating chi. But like everything else, moderation…$
More like he asked ME out - into the backyard to TRAIN.
Qi Stagnation
too true hardened abs can certainly make one more prone to Qi Stagnation. Tensing of the muscles genarlly will have a backwards effect upon releasing Bin Qi (Sick energy/pathogens) and re-motivating Stagnant Qi back to its proper circulation. By squeezing the muscles one pinches the meridians and halts the flow of Qi or at least impedes its natural diection.