Lets all argue about forms.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Lets all argue about forms.

Originally posted by Vapour
[B]

In my view, being an encycropedia of techniques of particular style is the minimum fuction of form. And to be honest, I’m not sure this fuction is anyway useful considering that you can do that by doing drill work. There are far more to form than just that.

The reason some form contain complicated and obscure technique is not that you are going to use that technique in combat. It is more that doing such techniue while maintaing principle is far more difficut so that it is a very good way to train that principle. Usually evey form has purpose and foundation form (such as sanchin or taijiquan form) contain the entire principle of particular style. If one think that form is just about encycropedia of techniques, one is waaaaay off the mark. [/B]

I think you completely missed what I was saying… I never mentioned an encyclopedia of anything. As I said earlier in this thread and in plenty of others, forms teach the principles of a system. Now, as for the topic, If you spend time drilling forms (Also, as I mentioned, Judo, shuai chiao,FMA, etc don’t count, as they have either no forms or single technique forms, which can directly apply to fighting) then you are dividing your time. You have to first learn this multi step form, then perfect it, then work it more… in addition to trying to drill and trying to spar. Obviously, your time is divided - it’s split amongst those three things. That doesn’t include weapons training, which is a foruth thing. Now, take a way weapons, and take away the multi technique forms. Now you have two things two work, right? Obviously less. so they get more fighting experience faster. And that is why most people will put money on the 6 month boxer, not the 6 month TMA.

Originally posted by Vapour
[B]
Plus, I don’t do boxing but I think boxer spend majority of training doing other than sparing where each training emphasise particular aspect of boxing.

After all why do we have training. If we can get better by just sparing, we don’t need to have a coach. All we have to do in any sport is to play. In fact in most sport, playing the entire game is there to discover your fault so that you can correct such fault in other training. [/B]

sure, there’s more than sparring, but you will be doing drills that will directly correlate to what you will be doing in the ring, or in a fight. As for the coach, his job is to point out flaws in your game and help you make them tighter. you don’t need forms for that. he makes corrections, you drill, he makes more corections. He also lends his insight and experience to help you make better use of your strengths.

That said though, simply sparring alone will indeed make you a better fighter. without coaching you will never be a great fighter, as your techniques will likely be sloppy, and you won’t have any holes you may have pointed out to you. experience is experience though, so yes, you would improve some.

Originally posted by Vapour
Hmmm, firstly we practice technique against resisting opponent in pushing hand so someone criticisimg taijiquan form for not doing partner work is shooting completely wrong target

push hands is not sparring. Typically what gets shot down is styles that don’t spar, but only do forms and drills, especailly when the drills aren’t done real time. Not all taiji falls in that category, but some does - probably alot.

As of speed, there is some confusion as to the nature of speed. Strictly speaking, muscle do not react faster just because you repeat movement fast.

doesn’t matter. when you become comfortable doing something at higher speeds, you relax into doing it that way. judo is a good example. It’s easy to do a throw slowly when you are learning it, but what happens when you try it fast and with resistance? It’s a different ball game. Also, if you can do it fast, you can always do it slow. juse because you can do it slow, that doen’t mean you can do it fast. Same with flexibility. If you can kick high, you can always kick low, but the reverse does not hold true.

And if you are performing technique incorrectly, you might develop wrong muscle which works against your speed.

as you mentioned coaches before, that’s what they are for.

What in fact happen is that some people move more efficiently than other which make his movement faster while his/her muscle move at the same speed as next guy. So idea that moving slow teach muscle to be slow is not correct.

see my above statement on this.

In taijiquan’s case, you can perform form extremely slowly paying particular emphasis on relaxation. My take is that when I can do particular technique correctly in the form, I can easily perform the technique fast.

your take would be wrong in most cases, if you are talking about also with resistance.

However, if I just repeat particular technique, because fast performance of form will not let me examine my performance in detail, I never seems to be able to correct the technique until I get back to doing technique slowly.

Like you said, YOU can’t do it. if you can’t do it, tape yourself. also, that’s what your teacher is for.

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]

Nope, not related to that.
Got to do with mindset more than training methods, IMO.[/b]

I think a great part of that is the training itself, not just the mindset. to be successful in the ring, you need both.

[b]Following the latest trends in computers & computer science is actually hurting the industry more than it does it good.

[/B]

disagree. sure, platforms would be more stable, but would we have cable modems or 1Ghz processors? likely not. Also, where would security be? we’d be lacking. Without the ever advancing tech, we likely would have less serious hackers. they discover some awesome stuff - holes that may have been missed even with hundreds of hours of q & a. Like it or not, hackers made security what it is today. Thank microsoft for giving them the enthusiasm :wink:

Sevenstar.

Naturally mindset and training methods work together.

Many TMA today don’t have a mindset of pushing themselves as hard as they can, or go beyond trying to learn the next set.

Yes, not many TMA won competitions.
But there are quiet a few that won fights in MMA competitions.

disagree. sure, platforms would be more stable, but would we have cable modems or 1Ghz processors? likely not. Also, where would security be? we’d be lacking. Without the ever advancing tech, we likely would have less serious hackers. they discover some awesome stuff - holes that may have been missed even with hundreds of hours of q & a. Like it or not, hackers made security what it is today. Thank microsoft for giving them the enthusiasm

Actually most of that procesor power is wasted unless you play games.
Optimum usage is around 103 ~104%,
ergo CPU runs at 100% and 3~4 tasks are scheduled for execution.

Disagree on Microsoft, they pump up software so quickly that they don’t test and leave holes in it that make me shudder.
If they would spend enough time/resources to properly test and debug 1 version they could break the cycle.

As for cable-modems, I just got myself upgraded to optical fibre(late I know).
This type of tech has more to do with how soon the infrasructure can be upgraded than with tech decelopment.

I was offered fibre 6 months after ADSL became available.

Seeya.

Originally posted by Knifefighter
A good example of this is Super-Slow weight lifting. This method of weight training was popularized a few years ago and is extremely hard to do. The problem is it has been shown to be quite less effectvie than faster, more traditional forms of weight training for the development of strength and power.

Could you offer some citations for this?

Not calling you out, just curious for my own edification, as I’ve felt like I was getting good results with slow weight training. Not only slow training, of course.

Originally posted by Zim
How many arts have you heard of that do not have forms, out of curiousity?

Originally posted by SevenStar
Also, as I mentioned, Judo, shuai chiao,FMA, etc don’t count, as they have either no forms or single technique forms, which can directly apply to fighting

If you agree with Sevenstar’s distinction here, there’s lots, even within TCMA, especially among the so-called internals. I can think of xingyiquan, yiquan, i-liq-quan, ziranmen, and some styles of baguazhang; and of course, shuai chiao, as mentioned.

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]Sevenstar.

Naturally mindset and training methods work together.

Many TMA today don’t have a mindset of pushing themselves as hard as they can, or go beyond trying to learn the next set.

Yes, not many TMA won competitions.
But there are quiet a few that won fights in MMA competitions.[/b]

yeah, there have been some. less often then sport fighters though, which would take me back to examining training methods.

Actually most of that procesor power is wasted unless you play games.

or unless you do some other intensive procsessing, like having multiple instances of something like dreamweaver, plus photoshop and flash.but yeah, games are the big thing.

Disagree on Microsoft, they pump up software so quickly that they don’t test and leave holes in it that make me shudder.
If they would spend enough time/resources to properly test and debug 1 version they could break the cycle.

that’s exactly my point. Because of them, hackers have come along way, really fast. like I said, thank microsoft for that.

[b]As for cable-modems, I just got myself upgraded to optical fibre(late I know).
This type of tech has more to do with how soon the infrasructure can be upgraded than with tech decelopment.

I was offered fibre 6 months after ADSL became available.
[/B]

in 1997, we were just getting adapted to the 56k modem. look where we are such a short time later.

in 1997, we were just getting adapted to the 56k modem. look where we are such a short time later.

Of course the question is, to we really need those super-fast connections when the majority of serves doesn’t send data at those speeds.
Kinda like owning a ferrarri or Super-bike, but can’t drive fast due to speed limits.

BTW, I got rid of all FD & CD/R’s at home and got myself a few good clip-drives instead.

Seeya.

Originally posted by Christopher M
[B]

Could you offer some citations for this?

Not calling you, just curious for my own edification, as I’ve felt like I was getting good results with slow weight training. Not only slow training, of course.[/b]

The problem with superslow is that the body won’t actually move like that - you gain strength, but it’s not efficient. Same with isolation exercises - you gain srength that way, but not in a manner in which the body typically works. In the case of super slow, it’s like pushing against a heavy boulder or car - but of course, you don’t normally move like that, particularly with fighting - more explosive movements. another example is isometrics - you get stronger, but only at the point of contraction, which is no good - you need strength increase throughout a full range of motion.

there is documentation for this stuff - I’ve seen some around. I’ll look for it.

If you agree with Sevenstar’s distinction here, there’s lots, even within TCMA, especially among the so-called internals. I can think of xingyiquan, yiquan, i-li-quan, ziranmen, and some styles of baguazhang; and of course, shuai chiao, as mentioned.

those styles also have multi techniques forms, no? I know xingyi does, but I hear it varies among styles of bagua. How are they trained?

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]

Of course the question is, to we really need those super-fast connections when the majority of serves doesn’t send data at those speeds.
Kinda like owning a ferrarri or Super-bike, but can’t drive fast due to speed limits.

[/B]

doesn’t matter - it’s all about the possibility of doing it. ever been into hacking or hang around those that were? many of them only care about possibilities - you lock your system, I think locked doors are an outrage. I get into it because I can. I may not do anything once I’m in, but I love the knowing that it’s possible.

A dead fly has had a webserver placed in it. A webserver was made out of a commodore 64. Do those really have any purpose? nah. at least not yet. But it’s all about possibilities.

Originally posted by SevenStar
The problem with superslow is that the body won’t actually move like that…

Right. A possible argument might be that the weight-lifting is for strength, not coordination - which is what martial arts are for.

Originally posted by SevenStar
Same with isolation exercises… another example is isometrics…

Arguably, in these instances we can point to specific problems other than a distinction of coordination between exercise and usage. For instance, that isolation exercises tend not to train postural stability, nor the large muscle bodies most important for functional strength. The same is true of isometrics, and they also do not condition the bones and sinews, nor offer contraction over a range of motion.

Is there something like this to point to for slow weight-lifting? For example, is the suggestion that you want to bias your training for faster contracting fibers?

Originally posted by SevenStar
those styles also have multi techniques forms, no? I know xingyi does, but I hear it varies among styles of bagua. How are they trained?

Yiquan/dachengquan, ziranmen, and i-liq-quan emphasize standing postures, free movement exercises exploring the standing coordinations in movement, flow drills, and sparring. http://www.yiquan.com.pl/starteng.html http://www.iliqchuan.org/
http://www.ziranmen.com/zi%20ran%20men.htm

The five fists and twelve animals of xinyiquan or the ten animals of xinyiquan might be multi-movement, but no more so than a judo waza. Some people will do linking forms where they string the five fists together, for instance. There are some long forms, but they aren’t very common.
http://www.xingyitchuen.com.br/index_2.html

Baguazhang varies alot. The bagua “forms” are actually collections of “palm changes”, ways of changing direction walking a circle. How many are studied and how complicated they get can vary alot. The original tradition of the Cheng style was to teach three, the longest of which is three steps.
Dunno any good websites for that… theres a vid of a palm change here though: http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/kaizhang.mov

If you spend time drilling forms (Also, as I mentioned, Judo, shuai chiao,FMA, etc don’t count, as they have either no forms or single technique forms, which can directly apply to fighting) then you are dividing your time. You have to first learn this multi step form, then perfect it, then work it more… in addition to trying to drill and trying to spar. Obviously, your time is divided - it’s split amongst those three things. That doesn’t include weapons training, which is a foruth thing. Now, take a way weapons, and take away the multi technique forms.

So the techniques from my forms can not be directly applied to fighting? I certainly know they can.
If the techniques can’t what about the posture, principles, ways of stepping/flowing, power generation, intent, stances, and all round way of moving?

How about we take out the cadio that boxers and kickboxers do? If we cut that in half or 1/4 that gives me more time to perfect the techniques and basics of my system. Or maybe spend the time training iron palm so when I hit you it feels like you were hit by a bar of steel?

In my experiense if I do the techniques the way I am tought (ie the correct way) they work much better in sparing. Doing them correctly takes training. That training involves doing forms.

Each form that I have learnt so far has tought me many things above and beyond waving my limbs about :stuck_out_tongue:

Then again the vast majority of speed in fighting comes from timeing and that comes from hitting focus mitts and pads as well as sparing.
Timeing’s no good though if all that comes out is slopy strike with no power.

Maybe I should stop seeing if my techniques from the forms will cause a knockout and just spar more.. :slight_smile:

All in balance. Yin with Yang.

Lowlynobody.

If you think doing form is largely a waste of time, that is your view. However, I beg to differ. I have been pointing out the benefit of form/kata practice not just as simple tool to learn techniques but as a way to learn proper body alignment, overall relaxation of body and various principles of system. And in long run, this produce better result. And when I say long run, I’m not talking about 10 years. I’m talking about few years. For example, in other post, you had no idea as to the difference between low posture and sunk posture and insisted that low posture will sacrifice mobility while in fact opposite is the case.

As of sparing, if that is only thing one train, it will only produce medicore fighter. Ask any coarch of any martial arts including boxing or judo. If you chuck beginner into sparing, he will immediately start doing thing in wrong way and if he continue he will pick up habit which he never be able to get rid of. Sure he might win for first few months against other complete beginner but after that he is a toast against someone who spend time learning correct techniques. And pointint out fault will not help because in sparing, you are not given margin of error to correct your faluts.

The fact is that if you try out any technique in full force, natural reaction is to tence up and force technique whether it is grappling technique or striking technique. And getting to do technique correctly take years of training not months or weeks.

There is alway differece between sparing and real thing. Not only sparing designed so that you don’t incur injury (and in case of boxing, you have to limit quantity of sparing because of long term implication), sparing is there to test out technique. I’ve been often told by my judo instructor that in randori, you don’t fight. If one treat randori like competition, each contestants will lock each other in grip and rarely one can do any techniques. That kind of thing are reserved for competition and doing that in training sparing is huge waste of time. In randori, your arm have to be totally relaxed and you try out techniques you learned as many as you can even if that will make you varunearble to be thrown by opponent.

I have been doing exactly that in my judo training. I always went for it to win. I’m quite strong for my short built so when I do randori, I usually prevent throw or hold attempt by usnig my blute force. I was asked initially by few of classmates whether I done wrestling or sumo. I thought that was a compliment but it wasn’t. I had one guy who was physically weaker than me and when he was a beginner, I had no problem handling him. Last week, when I did randori, I was suprised to find that I could not muscle him to submission despite the fact that I’m still stronger and forever younger than him. Not only that I had to admit that I’m fixated on only two technique and sweeps while he had far more number of technique to try out on me and today he threw me once in competition randori though I threw him twice. (We are having competition next week so we had go at it). It is o.k. when I try few techniques with my blute force against lower coloured belt but I have no chance against black belts so I always had to take thing to the ground where physical strenght give much more advantage Made me realised that I have been wasting my training in a blind alley by trying out randori in full force.

Humiliating thing is that if I relax my arm, I get thrown far more often. Not only that, I was humbled to realised that I was finding it easiler to throw that weaker opponent because he was faithfully following our coach’s instruction by relaxing his arm and trying out as many throw as possible in randori which made it easier for me to throw him. When he had go at me, he was far more formirable. But I’'m still better than him though. :slight_smile:

Correct way to do randori whether it is standing or groundwork randori is to do it by 80% of force. Trying out randori like competition in regular training is huge waste of your time because you and your opponent would be locked into hold and never being able to try out techniques.

And I stress it again. Trying to obtain the correct feeling for technique, which in tajiquan’s case involve slower performance of form because of its emphasis on the correct body alignment and in case of judo, doing kata cooperatively which any good coach will tell you to do, might seems useless at first but it is far quicker way to improve your ability in medium and long run.

Originally posted by Christopher M
[B]

Could you offer some citations for this?[/B]

Several studies have been published over the last couple of years in “Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise”, the “Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research”, and the “Journal of Applied Physiology” showing the advantages of traditional speed lifting over Super-Slow.

Originally posted by Vapour
For example, in other post, you had no idea as to the difference between low posture and sunk posture and insisted that low posture will sacrifice mobility while in fact opposite is the case.

Either of these will sacrifice mobility. Ever see a sprinter running in a low or sunk posture?

Aw… gonna make me work for it, eh? :smiley:

Dunno who wrote this.

If you spend time drilling forms (Also, as I mentioned, Judo, shuai chiao,FMA, etc don’t count, as they have either no forms or single technique forms, which can directly apply to fighting)

This is not true. Some Judo schools teach random ass long kata, I have 0 exp with shuai chiao, and for **** sure FMA has what could be considered long forms - so does Muy Thai. If you train incorrectly, you suck, not your teacher, the style he learned, or the method he teaches. Passing the blame for your ignorance to random ass labels like “forms” or the name of a style is silly - individuals are responsible for themselves, you are responsible for your skill, or lack of.

Forms are helpful. Jumping rope is helpful. To much of either is harmful (sometimes physically) to your skill. Doing anything incorrectly only benefits you in very small nearly insignificant ways.

Find a good teacher, do what he says.

:eek:

Originally posted by Knifefighter
[B]

Several studies have been published over the last couple of years in “Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise”, the “Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research”, and the “Journal of Applied Physiology” showing the advantages of traditional speed lifting over Super-Slow. [/B]

In this case, what benefit are we talking about. If it is strength, we already settled that. Weightlifting do increase strenght.

Question is whether training in fast speed would increase speed becasuse muscle will not move faster just because you repeatedly moving muslce. Reaction of muscle is entirely matter of electric impulse and given that arm is not at all heavy, speed is largely matter of coordination and efficiency of movement.

My guess is that benefit discuss in this result is mainly to do with strenght. And if super slow weight lifting is deteriment to speed, answer is very simple. Super slow “resistance” training is deteriment to speed becasuse it unduly tense up muscle. Hence result do not at all apply to taijiquan form practice.

As of speed and low posture, your point is exactly the one made by Sevenstar and it is incorrect. There is difference between speed and mobility. Here is the thread where we discussed this. Check the second last page where I refer difference of mobility between Maladona and Carl Lewis.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21155

This is an age old debate

FORMS were created to convey a set pattern of movements mimicing the movements of either combat (ex; hsing-i, pakua)
or the percieved movements of animals in combat(predominantly in most martial systems).
FORMS were also used as code to convey the various lineages and sects of the different schools(ex. shaolin ,hung gar,tang lang). WHICH is where most of these ramblings are based on.

Forms also serve as a means to increase the body’s flexability and stamina, and some of them have no real combat applications.
Some forms focus mainly on developement of the internal system.

I my opinion i believe that forms are not set,nor are they the same as they are handed down. You can create your own form for whatever you want IF you have the knowledge and the creativity to do so. i am an advocate of the creative process of learning a form then forgetting it and then creating your own to improve upon oneself in mind,body,spirit.

You know its okay to be a part of one form or system and it is also okay to blend and mix and be a part of many systems.
each will do the form differently and if you have no form and no routine to train by then thats fine as well. who are you trying to prove yourself to? your peers your teacher? your ability is your own either in form,fighting,or both.

MRTWS

Super Slow studies:

http://www.cbass.com/Slowfast(2).htm