Leg Tech

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
41

Mooying

If I have learned one thing in CMA it is to listen attentively, believe little and politely nod. Then get on with training and don’t worry about were the material came from.

LOL sound advice and I thank you for it.

I do however really want to understand the origin and truth about the system that I have devoted my life to.
Until the internet all one could do was believe was was told to them. So its nice to hear different thoughts stories and history from others who like to share, educate and learn.
Psysical training is a given but kung fu is made up of many parts and a major part for me personally is history and knowledge.

42

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1038449]Just because you can kick it doesn’t mean you can deliver power through your target. Anyone off the street can punch or kick a solid object. MA should teach one how to do it in the most efficient way with optimum power. Proper form is the first step to developing those abilities. Sloppy form = lack of balance + lack of targeting + weak strikes. Its quite simple.[/QUOTE]

And you think you can learn proper balance, targeting, absorption of force, power delivery necessary to effectively and definitively strike and damage a solid yet moving object…by striking nothing but air?

43

[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1038477]And you think you can learn proper balance, targeting, absorption of force, power delivery necessary to effectively and definitively strike and damage a solid yet moving object…by striking nothing but air?[/QUOTE]

Since you apparently didn’t bother to read my post…

“IMO, mastering the basics through forms should be the FIRST step…”

I teach a progression which includes forms, bag work, two man drills, two man sparring, then one man against multiple aggressors.
But I have only been teaching 32 years. Perhaps you can enlighten us on the proper way to teach these skills. I am always ready to learn new methods.

44

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1038480]“IMO, mastering the basics through forms should be the FIRST step…”[/QUOTE]
When you use your round house kick to kick in the thin air, you have to worry about your balance, and also not to over pop your knee joint, you may not be able to “put all your body behind your kick”. When you kick at a heavy bag, you know the heavy bag will stop your kick. You don’t have to worry about your balance and too much pop on your knee joint.

The front toe push kick is very difficult to train with shoes on. Since you cannot bend your toes back when you have shoes on, you may pay too much attention on your toes instead of the ball of your foot. You won’t have that problem if you kick on a heavy bag because you have no choice but to use “the ball of your foot”.

I prefer to use 2 men drills to “develop” combat skill and later on to use the forms training to “enhance” the combat skill. There are many advantages by using this approach. One advantages is you will never create any “dancer” and that’s for sure. Since I know that I don’t belong to the main stream, I don’t expect people to agree with me on my approach.

45

When someone walks into ANY martial arts school the first thing they need to learn is how to move thier body like a martial artist. This is done in our school with body codinations.
This teaches balance, agility form and focus. It is imparitive to learn the mechanics of kicking properly.
This is done by the beginner student to kick the air way before he kicks a target. other wise they will instill bad habits in thier form.
This is the best and IMO the only way to properly teach a person to kick, however those that dont have the experience of teaching will disagree.

Boxing is no different walk into any boxing school and they teach shadow boxing first and foremost, before the gloves every are worn.

46

[QUOTE=Michael Dasargo;1038384]The knockdown cadence is camouflaged by the rhythm of the strikes, making the transition nearly undetectable. Threading Needle Chopping waist and Silk Entwining Hand are examples of the seamless transition from striking/trapping to tripping/knockdown.[/QUOTE]
When Brendan Lai explained the “threading needle chopping wasit”, he used his left hand to make a small circle from his left waist to his opponent’s waist. I asked him why not just used s straight line push instead. His answer was this will generate more striking power by circlular motion. Since you are using the other leg to block/hook/sweep your opponent’s back leg, whether that hand should be used as a strike or just a push, it should not make any difference. I’ll say that most Mantis guy’s “intend” are more in striking and less in throwing.

47

Earthdragon,
Since it was not specified in the initial post, are we talking leg techniques in a street or tournament setting? Very different methods and applications are involved for each.

For example, in my school we have a “street/self-defense” emphasis. We use a very limited number of kicks and those kicks never rise above the groin, if that high. Hands lead the trips/sweeps and feet lead the hand/elbow strikes.

48

I asked him why not just used s straight line push instead. His answer was this will generate more striking power by circlular motion

always a fan of cyntrical force. not sure about sp?

mooying always street, and real application, havent done tourney’s since my karate days in the 80’s… dont need to go into why I dont care for them at all but im sure you could imagine.

49

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1038633]always a fan of cyntrical force. not sure about sp?[/QUOTE]

would that be anything lke centrifugal force??? like inertia, ration yadda yadda???

50

LOL yessssss couldnt remember how to spell that word to save my life,( brain feart) but that doesnt look like the way its pronounced either… go figure

51

no… its weird… for years i thought it was spelled centrifical force… go figure, theres a G in there:confused:

:smiley:

52

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1038580]When Brendan Lai explained the “threading needle chopping wasit”, he used his left hand to make a small circle from his left waist to his opponent’s waist. I asked him why not just used s straight line push instead. His answer was this will generate more striking power by circlular motion. Since you are using the other leg to block/hook/sweep your opponent’s back leg, whether that hand should be used as a strike or just a push, it should not make any difference.[/QUOTE]

Sifu Lai’s specialty was speed. He did this by making his motions as small and streamlined as possible. In order to generate enough power, he used circular short force that tied in to waist coiling, or “vibration” as he called it.

The hand circle from his waist to opponent’s waist was the large version of the circle. In actual application he would set up the “thread needle waist chop” by closing in quickly with a grab and a palm to face.

When the opponent reacts to the palm, Sifu Lai is already close, and used the waist coiling to complete the legwork to set up the throw. Since the waist is already coiling, he also used that to generate the pushing force with the hand that was grabbing. The grabbing hand is not at the waist, but close to the opponent in guard position. Even the initial grab and palm attack starts with the same waist coiling/vibration that powers the legwork. All the circular forces combine to generate the throwing force.

Alternate set up can be with opening palm attack using the lead hand. The attacking hand leaks out of the parry and becomes the waist pushing hand. The leak is circular, and continues the small circular force to generate the pushing power.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1038580]I’ll say that most Mantis guy’s “intend” are more in striking and less in throwing.[/QUOTE]

That’s my impression also. But for waist chop, he always had us train it for the throw.

53

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1038580]Since you are using the other leg to block/hook/sweep your opponent’s back leg, whether that hand should be used as a strike or just a push, it should not make any difference.[/QUOTE]

When we set up the leg part of the waist chop, we often don’t make a big motion with the leg. It is just enter, contact, stick, and press with the leg to combine with the other motions to throw.

54

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1038482]I prefer to use 2 men drills to “develop” combat skill and later on to use the forms training to “enhance” the combat skill. There are many advantages by using this approach. One advantages is you will never create any “dancer” and that’s for sure.[/QUOTE]

+1

I like this method.

55

[QUOTE=-N-;1039153]In actual application he would set up the “thread needle waist chop” by closing in quickly with a grab and a palm to face.

When the opponent reacts to the palm, …[/QUOTE]

The disadvantage of this set up is you have to get hold of your opponent’s back arm. This sometime is the most difficult thing to do because the distance between your back arm and your opponent’s back arm are just too far. The advantage of this is as soon as you can control your opponent’s back arm, his front leg will be easy for your reach.

If you can change this set up a bit different. The moment that your right leading arm contacts your opponent’s leading right arm, the moment that you pull your opponent’s right arm to his left. You then step in and hook/trip your opponent’s “back leg” with your right leg when you use your left hand to push his waist. The advantage of this set up is you don’t need to reach to your opponent’s back arm. The disadvantage of this set up is you have to use your leading leg to reach to your opponent’s back leg. Also a sweep may not be possible in this way.

After many years of trying, I feel the 2nd approach can work better than the 1st approach. The reason is simple. As long as you can generate enough forward momentum, you can always use your front leg to hook/trip your opponent’s back leg.

What’s your Mantis guy’s opinion about this modification on “threading needle chopping waist”?

56

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1039164]After many years of trying, I feel the 2nd approach can work better than the 1st approach. The reason is simple. As long as you can generate enough forward momentum, you can always use your front leg to hook/trip your opponent’s back leg.

What’s your Mantis guy’s opinion about this modification on “threading needle chopping waist”?[/QUOTE]

I have not tried this approach for front leg to catch the opponents back leg from the front. I’ve done it for the front leg if I make him put too much weight on it. I scoop the leg, but I’m not close enough to push the waist.

So the second approach goes directly into the throw, which is probably very suitable for one with your background. I probably would not be very finesseful in using it.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1039164]The disadvantage of this set up is you have to get hold of your opponent’s back arm. This sometime is the most difficult thing to do because the distance between your back arm and your opponent’s back arm are just too far. The advantage of this is as soon as you can control your opponent’s back arm, his front leg will be easy for your reach.[/QUOTE]

This version classically is set up with a fake attack.

If right lead grabs the opponent’s right lead, left back hand can make a palm attack to the face. The attack needs to be deep enough to make the opponent lean backwards. Your palm is already on his face, and he gives you his back arm when he tries to parry. You don’t have to reach for his arm. You only have to hit to the face as we normally like to do.

The first attack is not the real attack. It is misdirection to make him give you his back arm so that you can thread in your waist chop throw without him realizing.

Even if he doesn’t react with his back arm, you can just grab his head, neck, collar, shoulder or whatever that is on his left side and continue with the throw.

The throw has to be hidden in the middle of his reaction to the strike attack.

In both approaches, the forward momentum or gap closing is required. Too many times people are not deep enough with the leg maneuver when they try to waist chop throw.

57

Btw, sometimes we deliberately make the first attack slightly slower so the person can try to parry. That is so he will give us his left hand and we don’t have to work so hard.

58

When doing cut waist one does not need to grab the rear arm to make it effective. One can grab the wrist, also you can steal the neck and still get cut waist.

JAB

59

[QUOTE=-N-;1039175]In both approaches, the forward momentum or gap closing is required. Too many times people are not deep enough with the leg maneuver when they try to waist chop throw.[/QUOTE]

Where to put your foot before your move is so important. There is no way to train this in solo form. When I train solo, I like to put 2 marks on the ground (as my opponent’s feet) so I have some reference points.

[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;1039254]When doing cut waist one does not need to grab the rear arm to make it effective. One can grab the wrist, also you can steal the neck and still get cut waist.

JAB[/QUOTE]
That will work just fine. I just hate that extra dependency (grab the rear arm). It will be really nice that your opponent will stay in a “cross stance” with his right foot forward and left arm forward.

60

[QUOTE=Michael Dasargo;1038319]It’s to my understanding that footwork will ultimately “collide” with the opponent once within range, resulting in a percussive force (kick) with or without the knockdown. Thus, it got all wrapped up into “legwork”.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Michael Dasargo;1038384]The knockdown cadence is camouflaged by the rhythm of the strikes, making the transition nearly undetectable. Threading Needle Chopping waist and Silk Entwining Hand are examples of the seamless transition from striking/trapping to tripping/knockdown.[/QUOTE]

Sounds good to me! :slight_smile: