[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1038089]mooying,
So where does this myth come from? and where did mantis get jumping and rolling tech’s if not from monkey?[/QUOTE]
No idea where this idea came from. Though as I mentioned monkey, as well as mantis, developed in Shandong province. Perhaps the monkey style inspired the idea of jumping in mantis, though the actual jumping methods of the two are different (from my experience).
A roll is a roll, unless it has jelly in it. There are only so many ways the body can roll. So, I don’t see any reason to feel monkey inspired the rolls in mantis. Though rolls are extremely rare in mantis forms. I know of only a couple forms that include rolling techniques in CCKTJMH or 7* PM. Others please correct me on this if I am wrong.
If anything, I think the idea of monkey footwork in mantis may come from a possible past link between mantis and tong bei or tai zu quan. Perhaps Sifus Brazier or Hui can comment on this, since I know almost nothing about that subject.
In most myths there is usually a past kernel of truth. However, with the irrepressible Chinese fascination with story-telling and the lack of literacy within the ranks of past masters, which deprives us of historically reliable written records, the facts behind most myths are unsolvable.
tong bei may have influenced this… that could be the connection. I know mantis is made up af 14 styles, just not enough life times to learn all of them and what the added and or influenced…
BTW love your sig, I always say I have been doing MA for 30 years and I’m begining to understand a little
Monkey as in elusive, deceptive, light, agile, nimble.
Not monkey as in emulating how the monkey moves or literally coming from a “monkey” named style.
Same with the overexaggeration of “Bagua footwork in Babu Tanglang.” Toeing in and out is not exclusive to Babu, and neither is the strategy of trying to get behind your opponent. I wouldn’t even say that Babu emphasizes it anymore that Meihua, Qixing etc. etc.
But, what do I know!? Mike and I used to have many of these conversations. I miss having beer and a good talk with Mike. Miss Mike.
I was taught Bagua is a major part of 8 steps footwork if not all of it, not just toeing as three harmonies said, so jake if this you beleive to be an exaggeration then if its not where and what style does this come from?
our 8 short
ba bu
chuang bu
dai bu
ru wan bu
nuo bu
cuan ta bu
xin bu
tuo bu
our 8 long
hen ye
sun jiao
fang xing
me hua
liu xing
qi xing
zou zhan
bagua
when speaking to a bagua master many years ago and showing him our footwork he said yes this all comes from bagua so im confused where you learned differently or exagerated as you said
[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;1038192]Monkey as in elusive, deceptive, light, agile, nimble.
Not monkey as in emulating how the monkey moves or literally coming from a “monkey” named style.
But, what do I know!? Mike and I used to have many of these conversations. I miss having beer and a good talk with Mike. Miss Mike.
Cheers,
JAB[/QUOTE]
Good point Jake!
Yep, none cooler than the Biggie-meister. Last I saw him was a few weeks ago when I dropped by to present him with a copy of my new WHF quanpu book.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1038073]Jake,
Actually I was a bit off-topic. I was referring to the punching techniques. I prob should watch more current ones. I was so turned off by early sloppy hand techniques and the low percentage of kicks that I haven’t watched much lately. I’m not much into watching two guys in little shorts rolling around on the mat (perhaps a bit too ****phobic :D).
Thanks for the heads up. I’ll start watching again and see what is currently happening. :)[/QUOTE]
its still so young, so its still changing really fast… it wont be well on the plateau for a bit yet…
Don’t forget about the leg strikes. In this boxing form, I have identified four basic leg strikes to practice. The first leg strike is the “Scoop the Crotch Leg” (Liao Yin Tui) found in posture 3. The second is the “Mandarin duck leg” (Yuan Yang Tui) found in posture 53. The third leg strike is the “Leg bump” (Zha Tui), a strike to your opponent’s knee and shin area, executed as a hidden strike after performing “Agile cat capturing a rat.” The fourth leg strikes is also a hidden strike called, “Sprouting leg” (Jiu Tui) executed while delivering sideways striking. In the “Rules of Chuan,” you want to “Simultaneously kick with evasive body movements” (Jiao Qu Shen Li). Think about it.
Before concluding, I must bring to your attention the “Rules of Chuan,” regarding “Multi-directional fighting” (Si Fang Ba Mian Da Fa). In “Thrusting Foot Boxing,” slowly go through postures 22 through 28, “Single downwards chop to leg trapping technique.” You will have to rely on your quick eyesight and your quick reflexes to practice the quick footwork and the quick striking this boxing form has to offer. If you have reached this level of boxing, let me congratulate you. You can now ask your martial arts instructor if you are ready to move to the next level and learn more advanced fighting principles and techniques.
• Part 8: analyzing Intercepting Fist boxing
Referring to the “Rules of Chuan,” there is the “Kicking techniques using evasive body movements” (Jiao Qu Shen Li), found in posture 43, “Mandarin duck kick” and in posture 52, “Whirlwind kick.” In the Northern Praying Mantis Boxing system there are many “Hidden offensive techniques” (An Cang Du Zhuo) which can be found in posture 7, “An embroidering girl doing embroidery with needles,” in posture 10, “Turning the body to dash out a strike to the opponent’s crotch,” in posture 26, “Trying to fish out the moon from the bottom of the sea,” and in posture 32, “Getting treasures from the bottom of the sea.” Don’t forget the deceptive fighting strategy of mantis boxing. Practice the “Multi-directional fighting” (Si Fang Ba Mian Da Fa) found in posture 29, “Making a rubbing fist strike” through posture 39, “Moving both feet and smashing both hands.” After attacking, intercepting, and then applying hidden attacks, follow through with palm and elbow strikes, switching directions executing double sinking elbows to and double fist smashes in different directions.
Already I am confused about this thread; are we talking leg techniques or footwork???
And what happened to Alex??? Too hot a conversation??
Footwork is universal. Our bodies are finite and can move in a limited capacity that is for the most part no different then the rest of the human beings we share earth with. Bagua’s footwork is not solely found in Bagua is my only point. Of course the Bagua guy is going to concur! I am sure if you showed your footwork to any stylist they would find the similarities striking!
Richard,
I meant Mike Martello, but Biggie is great too! Fortunately I still have conversations with Biggie.
Already I am confused about this thread; are we talking leg techniques or footwork???
LOL I think we are speaking of both. Although they are one in the same combining footwork in relation to leg techniqes . however I was taught all came from Bagua, am I wrong?
Footwork is universal. Our bodies are finite and can move in a limited capacity that is for the most part no different then the rest of the human beings we share earth with. Bagua’s footwork is not solely found in Bagua is my only point. Of course the Bagua guy is going to concur! I am sure if you showed your footwork to any stylist they would find the similarities striking!
I agree that we only have two hands two feet and limited movements of them. However humans only have one mouth yet there are many different ways of speaking tone, pronunciation, pitch, decible, inflextion etc etc as well as difernent languages so to compare similarites is OK but lets not say words that come from arabic are the same as latin. So I guess we are talking about the same thing just trying to see what the difference is and who else uses what we use. As I see alot of styles dont have much when it comes to using the legs for fighting but rather standing or using them to move but not as a weapon. Hope I’m being clearer
I have watched many styles over the years and although simular to a point ie using the lower extremities, they differ greatly.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1038285]LOL I think we are speaking of both. Although they are one in the same combining footwork in relation to leg techniqes . however I was taught all came from Bagua, am I wrong? [/QUOTE]
u were taught that all footwork and leg techs came from bagua???
It’s to my understanding that footwork will ultimately “collide” with the opponent once within range, resulting in a percussive force (kick) with or without the knockdown. Thus, it got all wrapped up into “legwork”.
I may be wrong, but the main bagua influence on Babu is the coiling/uncoiling of the arms. The uncoiling aspect is to escape chin na in a similar manner that BJJ ucoils (rolls) out of locks.
IMO:
Bagua Influence: counter/rolling the chin-na with reversal throwing.
Taiji influence: unbalancing: hook grapple pluck turned into hook, suppress, uproot.
Xingyi influence: footwork: short burst coupled with micro angle changes.
Tongbei: the rocks that are attached to the xinyi slingshot. where the footwork loads with compression, tongbei arms expand for heavy percussive power.
Mantis: “hook” trapping tactics that ties it all together.
M.
PS
After studying shuai a bit, it appears to me that mantis does not have “throws” per se, but knockdowns. The shuai fa that we see from Babu, IMO, is shuai-chiao preceded with Babu entries. This is in reference to 7 Star and Plum Blossom Mantis.
u were taught that all footwork and leg techs came from bagua???
yes pertaining to 8 step, obviously not all mantis
Michael D
It’s to my understanding that footwork will ultimately “collide” with the opponent once within range, resulting in a percussive force (kick) with or without the knockdown. Thus, it got all wrapped up into “legwork”.
well said this is what I was trying to explian to three harmonies/Jake, but couldnt find the words. footwork adn leg tech are one in the same
After studying shuai a bit, it appears to me that mantis does not have “throws” per se, but knockdowns. The shuai fa that we see from Babu, IMO, is shuai-chiao preceded with Babu entries. This is in reference to 7 Star and Plum Blossom Mantis.
can elaborate on this… I teach the 40 basic throws of Shuai chiao taught to me by Shyun who was taught by Wei and have been told that what we teach is true Shuai Jiao and def added to 8 step.
Shifu Puyot taught me 18 throws, which if I recall is filtered down from what he learned from Shyun. I’ll ask him more about this later.
According to folklore, Feng Hua Yi supposedly was an expert in SC and Ying Jow Pai. But we know how unreliable verbal transmissions can be.
So I asked around. Contacts from Taiwan deny any knowledge of Shyun learning SC. So I tried locally.
Jan-yu Weng recalls Shyun at his house spending time with his dad Dr. Weng back in the day. When I asked Dr. Weng about Shyun, his response was “Yeah, I know him” then we moved on to another subject.
Regardless of where he learned from, the point is that the shuai fa (throwing techniques) predominately found in Shyun line are integrated from the art of shuai jiao.
Most Mantis Boxers agree that while several styles compose the roots of mantis, 7 Star and Plum Blossom Mantis compose the trunk, and Styles like Liu He and Babu branched off from these origins.
The cadence of 7 Star and Mei Hua is very much like a drum roll. Not only striking high low left right, but also seamlessly executing chin na and kao da (knockdowns) without breaking cadence.
The knockdown cadence is camouflaged by the rhythm of the strikes, making the transition nearly undetectable. Threading Needle Chopping waist and Silk Entwining Hand are examples of the seamless transition from striking/trapping to tripping/knockdown.
To transition into an all out throw would elongate the movement and break the cadence. Not necessarily a bad thing. It’s just not the tactical approach predominately taken by 7 Star/Plum Blossom.
I love the internet! LOL for many years I have searched the truth and origin of my style. I have met and spoke with many incredidably knowledgable people that have given me a more indepth answer than my own kung fu family.
Slowly and painstakenly I have pieced together loose ends with the help of this board and its memebers.
Thank all of you so much for sharing your information. It seems there is more shrouded in mystery in TCMA than in all of egypt but one things the same, one must dig to unveil.
For the history that was once told to our lineage has way to many holes.
I was told the shui jiao WAS strickly from Feng Hua Yi, and that added to ba bu was the 40 throws of this system as well as the jointlocks from Eagle claw.
The Wu style taiji was taught to master Wei by Wu Ching Chen 1870-1942 who was taught by his father Wu Chen Yo 1834-1902 and from his brother Yang Ban Ho 1837 1892. and in 1990 the Wu family contacted my shifu adn asked him not to teach thier family style as he was not a Chen so it was changed to Shyun style, but it seems the more I dig this doesnt add up either… LOL so I keep digging.
If nothing else, Chinese instructors are wonderful storytellers. Here in Ohio we were told back in the day that actual Shaolin Monks picked the herbs that were used in the jow sold to us for iron palm training. :eek: So nice to have a team of Shaolin monks at our disposal.
We were also told that it was important to take the herbal pills sold by the local instructors. One instructor explained how easily it could be to run into something and accidentally “dim mak yourself”.
Yes, stories abound in Asian culture. For example, did you know that some of the ancient samurai were taught by Tengu (half crow/half human demigods)?
If I have learned one thing in CMA it is to listen attentively, believe little and politely nod. Then get on with training and don’t worry about were the material came from.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1037812]Yes, that looks like an excellent form for mastering the proper method of kicking. What style of mantis does that form appear in?
Jake,
Its true that no form can develop practical kicking application, that happens with drills and sparring. However, I believe Sifu Tse meant the form could help one master proper kicking techniques and possibly contain kicking theories. I wholeheartedly agree with him. I always tell my students that if you can’t master proper bodily movement in a form (no impact, no threat), how in the world are you NOT going to throw crappy techniques under pressure (painful impact, huge threat)?
Too much of what I have seen in modern MMA is absolute slop due to the lack of some teachers de-emphasis of forms (choreographed shadow-boxing). I think this is a shame. IMO, mastering the basics through forms should be the FIRST step if one desires to accomplish much when it comes time to test one’s skills in the ring.
Though I believe it is also sad when peeps are under the misconception that they know how to effectively fight, just because they know a bazillion forms. My hometown has certainly been filled with that fantasy. I know I personally did my part in trying to destroy that myth.
Richard A. Tolson[/QUOTE]
Except that its actually easier to kick a solid object than the air…
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1038442]Except that its actually easier to kick a solid object than the air…[/QUOTE]
Just because you can kick it doesn’t mean you can deliver power through your target. Anyone off the street can punch or kick a solid object. MA should teach one how to do it in the most efficient way with optimum power. Proper form is the first step to developing those abilities. Sloppy form = lack of balance + lack of targeting + weak strikes. Its quite simple.
There are only so many ways the body can roll. So, I don’t see any reason to feel monkey inspired the rolls in mantis. Though rolls are extremely rare in mantis forms. I know of only a couple forms that include rolling techniques in CCKTJMH or 7* PM. Others please correct me on this if I am wrong.