i know, this guy is making rolls look bad.
good job
When you bong me, you WILL feel a force and I won’t be stepping anywear.
That is correct. Pass to the left, please.
Bak mei. Go look for a good WT (wing tsun) school in New York. Ask them to spar. They will accept. then post your reasults here. I can find an address for you if you want. I bet your tune will be different.
Why do you call yourself Bak Mei??
“Tell me how you are going to prevent me from snapping your arm when you bong sau me.”
Yawn!!
You win,I’m going to leave my bong sao out there so you can snap it.:rolleyes:
Ok,lets have a pi$$ing contest.
4/82 you broke your first board,bout that time I was jumping out of a C-130 with a full combat load.
That same year I was in a combat zone wondering who was going to start WW3,North or South Korea,hell,they both liked to trade small arms and Artillery with each other and most of the time it was on my rotation while I was amongest dem,the next year Cubian Soldiers were throwing cigars at me in a hot DZ,nice fellers,we had to turn in the AK-47s we took off their bodies but got to keep the cigars.
Even after that I knew I wasn’t hard because most of my NCOs
came from what they call now as “Special Ops” groups,all of them being Nam Vets that didn’t play with boards and bricks,I was a cherry boy to them then and I still am the way I see it.
2 years later you were breaking bricks,you were hard.
You scare me.
Man are you ever setting yourself up for a big fall.
You guys are right, I am wrong. So sorry. Please forgive.
Wing Chun is the highest level of martial arts. Must be, Bruce Lee practiced it for 2 years and it was created by a nun. Its internal is amazing; Sil Lum Tao, could the internal aspects be taken to a higher realm?
Ps,
The last Wing Player to comment, I do resepct your survive for this country. I do apreciate the mindwet it must take to confront a man in a fire fight, I truly do. I’ve been training along time, and keeping cool in a violent situation takes a special mind set. So you have my respect in those regards.
However, you killing with a gun does not make me view your hand to hand ability any differently, if you would be defending with Wing Chun. Because on those terms, you’re trying to fight off an m16 with a sling shot. You may be great with it, but you do not have the advantage because of a lack of technology in comparison. So, as good as one may be with a sling shot, a decent kid with a AK could take you out from 25 yards.
But thank you. We need soldiers.
“The last Wing Player to comment, I do resepct your survive for this country. I do apreciate the mindwet it must take to confront a man in a fire fight, I truly do. I’ve been training along time, and keeping cool in a violent situation takes a special mind set. So you have my respect in those regards.”
With all due respect Bak Mei, you don’t know the half of it!
I’ve never been in a war so I can’t. I have grown up in Neark though and have seen casulties first hand.
When I was 8 or 9 two training brothers (they were brothers) had their heads beat in with a pipe, and then, had their skulls run over by the poeple’s van. I don’t know why this happened. I remember my sensei telling me and then my father saying it was drugs – the killers. The kids were my age, maybe a year older. My sensei did remark to me that those two never took their training seriously and it could have been the difference. Never said it to the clas. We were close. He’s been there my entire life.
Let’s see. Had three friends get shot in the head, had a gun pulled on me, been stabbed in the left bicep, had a shot gun pulled on three of my friends by some crazy guy in a van full of punks wanting to cause trouble – had a friend get shot for his Triple Fat Goose down jacket, 2 junkies, 3 suicides, and a partridge in a pair tree.
One of the nastiest, a fight broke out and my friend beat this guy down good. He wouldn’t stop, his hand to his face, his face to the cement, bounced back to meet another fist, back down to the cement. Over and over again. Had to pull my boy off. The guys was in a coma. Bad.
All this before I was 21, except for the latest suicide, which happened a month a go. An ex-soldier like yourself. Sweet kid, I don’t know how he was a soldier though because he was a softy. Guess he was a good order taker.
I do respect you guys, a dirty job and someone has to do it. Me, I’m not one for taking orders and running out to a fox hole. I’m more of a general type, a planner, an organizer, a stratagist.
If anything, I’d be a sniper. I like living on the high level. If I had to be a team player, special opp all the way but already to compromised there. Can anyone say Nicaragua airport. I;m not down with following orders to an ambush.
Anyway, I guess my point was you don’t have to wear the camo to have a first rate class in reality. The streets is a pretty good class room.
Bak Mei,
I’ve been following this thread, but not really commenting. You seem to be pretty sound as far as theory and concepts go. You sound like you are a good martial artist. However, please stop talking about your past like it even begins to measure up to what combat vets and especially spec op vets go through. It really just makes you look silly.
OK
I too have been following this thread without commenting.
I don’t do WC so I can’t comment on the technical aspects of what you’re all talking about.
In fact, I’ve only been training for a little over a year, so excuse me while I bow to my senior (scrape).
But I’ll tell you this: The fact that you come from hard streets does not make me respect your opinion any more, Bak Mai. You have put forward a scenario which you believe could not be refuted by a Wing Chunner. It has been, by two people in fact. So it seems your ‘last word on WC’ thread is redundant, as your premise is not true, as evidenced by at least three fellow members. You have posted a scenario detailing how you would break a WChunner, and replies have come back detailing how your description (and presumptions) are incorrect and how they would break you. Any response?
By the way, you have stated that you are first and foremost a fighter. Maybe if you eat some humble pie you might become a martial artist.
i think the pi$$ing has slowed to a dribble
honestly, gentlemen, if you’re mad at bak mei for touting himself for this and that, fine – he really does need to shut up about what he’s done – but throwing your own experience out there to make your puddle of pee any bigger isn’t any better.
your service is appreciated and you’re dàmn right you should be proud of it and wear it like a badge. however, pointing at the badge and saying “look what i got” isn’t all that impressive. you worked hard for what you have – let that stand out on it’s own merit.
Bak Mei
I think you missed my post. You haven’t responded to any of the points I made. Read it. Then tell me how you are going to criticize the pak sao which is found in many CMA styles. Tell me how you are going to execute multiple movements against the pak as I stand there striking a pose for you. You are foolish. We train followup movements when the oppenent pak’s, do you think your the first person to think of a compound movement as a response? All movements have a counter, you seem to forget that the opponent is fighting back. There is no such thing as block block block, all defense and no offense. That’s a good way to get hit, of course. Your only good point is that there are many WC posers out there, such as with Tai Chi. Due to the popularity of these arts, of course. Are you going to criticize Tai Chi now? Maybe say that while a Tai Chi player does his opponing movement, you’ll simply walk up and sock him in his eye? You may not find anyone to play with in the average WC school but I guarantee you there are real WC fighters out there. Also, please define an internal art, if WC is not. Most WC players define the art as both internal and external. Sil lum tao trains your chi to go through your arms into the hands. If it doesn’t, your just posing.
The stance shifting develops your torque power, which comes from the hips. WC is known to yeild, step outside the line of fire and come in with a new angle of attack. It can also being very external and come right down the middle.
Answers please, stop grandstanding.
-FJ
Again I am sorry. As I said in the first post, I get into this with wing chun all the time.
As for the pac sau, if you think that will prevent someone from coming in – great! Rely on it. I hope so. I hope Wing Chun will use it forever, I really do.
Just think about this. It may stop a jab, but not an entire man, his entire mass of over 200 pounds coming in atv you. You can try to throw 5 chain punches. My shiled will hit the first one, follow it back and jam the second one. Now you have to deal with that continued force! Step. Go ahead. I assure you your steppin gis not up to par with Ba Gua’s, so that same mass is with you now and you are no longer jammed, but down.
I don;t know about TNN, or Washington, pr wherever, but Wing Chun is not viewed as the cream of the crop by far in NY, where there is Hung Gar, Mantis, Choy, Hsing-I, Ba Gua, White Crane, and on and on. It just isn’t a high level art. Good, yes. But who’s talking about good. I;m talking baout keepin gup with the best of them. Not that I can, but its my pursuit. And Wing Chun wasn’t the answer by far.
Think real! I’m not pyunching you with my arm muscles, all of me is coming in. Do you think he can hold me back with a pac sau? I’ll jamm your other arm too. You are waaaay too busy as an art. To much going on and no enough getting done. Fuk sau, pac sau, bong sau, and not a **** thing accomplished yet. Straight in, shield up, body to body, NOW WE FIGHT!
Don;t even think about that heal in toe out jam kick – VERY structurally weak.
pak sao
I repeat, WC is not structurally weak, only if you mis-apply it. To pak someone’s arm who is coming in at you is not to stop that person, this is not the application. An example of a technique that does stop someone from coming in, is a punch or a kick. That’s that only way I ever learned. A high pak sao to me is an emergency technique, it is more difficult than blocks with the forearm because you have such a small part of your palm that you hit the target with. A structurally better technique is a pak + punch where your upper arm assists the pak in sheilding. You need to know what a technique is for. For instance, a pak sao is pretty useless against a tight hook, pak means “slapping” hand and a slap is not going to redirect a tight hook, although it is useful against a straight, or against a punch that you have already avoided somewhat with your footwork. Pak sao is also used to pin the oppenents elbow, also to slap a guard hand out of the way when intiating an attack.
Chain punching to me is a training exercise, not a battle strategy, at least we don’t train it this way. To me, it’s just to improve your hand speed and give you the instinct to keep punching, not to stop after one hit.
Wing Chun does need to train more realistically than is the case in most schools.
-FJ
Bak Mei
Hello,
I have read over this topic and find it ahem, amusing. While there is a great deal of poor Wing Chun there is also some good Wing Chun. If I read you right anyone who can make Wing Chun work is “higher level” and by your definition no longer doing Wing Chun. What a bold statement. However, it gives you an out if you happen to fight a Wing Chun guy and he wins, he must have transcended the art to the higher levels where Wing Chun is really something else. I am curious as to what art you study, is it Bak Mei? You mention Bagua but what do you really know about that system? You mention things that have happened in your life experience as though that gives credence to your words. Sorry, but there are many who have lived a much harder life, lost loved ones and had to kill in defense whether with or without weapons yet they go on and don’t need to attempt to justify their opinions with trying to impress everyone with how tough they are.
I would honestly be curious as to who you have touched hands with in Wing Chun. Perhaps you need to seek out some others to see how they compare. Wing Chun is not respected in NYC, from where did you draw this conclusion? I can assure you that there are several Wing Chun Sifu in NY who have the respect of other Sifu of different styles such as Hung Gar, Bagua etc. But then again, maybe I am wrong it is after all just my opinion based on several years of experience.
If you would like to meet some real Wing Chun people then please feel free to e-mail me. Or if you ever get down to Philly let me know. This is not a challenge as I have no interest in beating anyone, or being beat by them 
However, it would provide you an opportunity to expand your knowledge of Wing Chun and see if what you have been exposed to gives a fair representation of the art. Afterwards we could all go out for tea.
Peace,
Dave
IMO hope this silly thread dribbles out. … despite the “humor” provided by “Bak mei” who really is not a bak mei but has begun with a Chinese sifu a few months ago in e chuan etc. he has done some hsing I, he knows baqua- he does internal and he writes fighting stage plays starring himself versus himself— if you do this i will do that. So the new Bak mei fights his own creation the old bak mei and beats him.
yawn- wouldnt make even a fourth rated godzilla script.:rolleyes:
bak mei
sorry to say, buddy, but washington just isn’t the hotbed of kung fu that everyone seems to think 
we just have an amazing wing tsun school up here. as far as other styles in the area and their view of wt, the best i’ve heard anyone say bad about our kung fu is that it “looks funny” compared to other MAs. impressive opinion, no?
i’ve offered to “compare” with these comedians, but i have yet to get any useful replies. :rolleyes:
I think I understand what BM is talking about, I’ve seen it sometimes with the WC people I’ve sparred with. I’ve never thought it a problem with WC just those particular people at that particular time. In a nut shell I think they were forcing the holding of their centerline and forgot about footwork and being flexible. H3ll, I do have the same thing happen to me all the time in TKD.
Bak Mei, why not talk more about your art and less about Wing Chun.
BTW, why did you move up when you’re entering MMA competition time frame? Have you checked out what Sifu David Ross’ contests yet?
Fa-Jing
"a pak + punch where your upper arm assists the pak in sheilding. "
That’s all I wanted to hear … a theory, a principle. You’re Wing Chun is good, I’m sure of it!
Sorry if I ****ed you all off, but this is all I wanted to hear. You know what, my wing chun isn’t bad either. I wouldn’t call it Wing Chun anymore, but if I had to I could make it look like wing chun.
continuing education
Yeah Bak, I’ll let it slide, since you gave me a smiley. The truth is there is some hocus-pocus theory floating around that WC is better than all other styles, that would and does make me upset. These same people are the ones that claim chi sao is all you need to learn how to survive in the street. Then people like you don’t take WC seriously. While, WC is very cool in my mind, a intelligent simplification and development of pre-existing kung fu styles, with useful and innovative training methods. Maybe not your most comprehensive style, at least nowadays - for instance, I am not aware of break-falling being taught as part of the curriculum, but who’s to say? WC shouldn’t be limited by what Yip Man taught in Hong Kong, and many WC instructors try to fill in the gaps. My claim is that it’s still Wing Chun, even though we don’t know the specific falling methods of the WC ancestors. Now that the discussion has moved out of the toilet, I’m going to address the issue of Wing Chun being too busy with the hands. Do you know that some WC teachers don’t even teach kicking for 5 years? Talk about holding back information from your students! My Sifu has a lot of ring experience, he says the following: “Lose the flashiness. Plan to hit on the first or second technique. Hitting on the 3rd or fourth technique is only for show, or for training. Develop your most basic techniques, you’ve got to have these (fists) and you’ve got to have these (feet)”
On the structural weakness of some blocks, for instance a double block tan + bon sao leaving your side open: “You are not striking a pose.” Some other fun quotes “Sparring is not an option” “Pushups are not an option” He means these are requirements. My teacher has been influenced by JKD (he is a student of Ted Wong), and has exposure to other arts, but his fighting style is based on Wing Chun. He makes Wing Chun work in a way that you won’t be scratching your head thinking, “well what if I…” You would be thinking “yo, I’m glad he didn’t hit me full force” And he feels perfectly free to incorporate any technique he likes into the class time - fireman’s carry or horizontal fist or whatever. But we mostly train what’s thought of as traditional WC. You made some points about the deficiencies of some WC practicioners but I’m telling you that it ain’t all like that, not just my sifu - I’m sure Wong Sheung Long or another Wing Chun FIGHTER agreed about hitting on the first or second technique. Wong went on to do and teach Thai Boxing as well, so I don’t think everyone is as hokey or close-minded as the worst you have seen.
Something else about the busy hands - sifu teaches that when your hands get tied up, you don’t stand there wrestling, “the kick is automatic” That’s why we have a drill where we practise all of our basic single and double blocks and block + punch combinations with a kick. When you are too close to kick, you probably need to throw the opponent, or use a shoulder strike. Wing chun kicks are very cool, basic motions that you can hardly dispute. We train 5 basic kicks.
Oh yeah, I couldn’t resist having the last word…
-FJ
Bak Mei
Proper mindset is the key Bak Mei.
Battlefield or the streets its the same,if you training is sub-standard(which you claim WC/WT to be) and you reflexes are not honed you stand a good chance of assuming room temp most-ricky-tic.
But here is the issue,you are slamming a system you never explored to its fullest,only to your fullest.
YOUR is the key word here.
You have been lucky to study under the Yi-Chuan system which is a very powerful system.
I have studied powerful hand-to-hand systems myself yet you won’t find me saying that your system is no good or it won’t work or hear me try to pick apart other systems concepts.
“I’m not one for taking orders”
Not even from your Sifu?
" I’m more of a general type, a planner, an organizer, a stratagist."
I beg to differ,Generals have to at least at one point(some many) get in the mud too and take orders.
" A planner, an organizer, a stratagist."
You’re leaving ALOT out there.
“If anything, I’d be a sniper. I like living on the high level.”
Let this quote sink in on your high level…
“I am a sniper…
A loner…
I am not a part of the world…
But merely observe it through my crosshair…
I live by the shadows and die by the shadows…
I am always distant from everything else…
I am fearful by strength…
Invincible by distance…
Being a sniper is the worst thing to be…
Only hell can cleanse what we do.”
You’de never make it through the course,based on what you’ve wrote you tend to grossley underestimate your opponet,in the real thing,hand to hand or on the battlefield that kind of thinking will get you killed,faster on the battlefield than on the street my friend,for your sake I hope your Sifu will teach you that.
“If I had to be a team player, special opp all the way but already to compromised there. Can anyone say Nicaragua airport. I;m not down with following orders to an ambush.”
Let me clear somthing up here and now because you’ve got your facts wrong if I take it you’re reffering to the Airport in Panama(1989,guess you were 14 at the time busting bricks)
where members of a SEAL team that were acting on bad INTEL,can anyone say, " A planner, an organizer, a stratagist."???
Because that what you wrote you’de be good at.
“I;m not down with following orders to an ambush.”
Well the Navy SEALs(or SF,D-BoysRangers,LRSU,Marine Force Recon) are not in the biz of doing that either,they’re the cream of the crop and there ain’t many that are on their level but they lost people that night,some might take what you said as insult to injury or you’re getting in way above your head.
I still consider myself a cherry boy when it comes to the Hardcore cream of the crop.
I am not “politically correct”, hell…I can be very outspoken. I was schooled by some very old Non-Commissioned Officers and thats where I get it from. I may offend people, I may aggravate people and I may even annoy people but I never intend things personally. In a nutshell…I call it like I see it,my vision gets blurred at times too.
As far as me taking a walk down memory lane perhaps I did come off as rubthebudda said "however, pointing at the badge and saying “look what i got” as beating my chest,what I meant to convey to you was my own shocking wake up call and try to get across that things are not always as they seem to be,mind set and good training are just parts of the equation.
Theres always someone out there bigger,badder,meaner that has more skill willing to risk more than you unless you’re the God of MA the world has yet to discover.
Sun Tzu said,know yourself and your enemy(you’ve put your crosshairs on WC/WT/VT) so we’ll put yourself in the other slot.
Do you really want to short change yourself and say you fully understand WC/WT/VT concepts to the point that your training can defeat anyone in those systems??
Thus endith the military sermon.
There are alot of people from many systems that have the attitude that “We are the best”
You can learn alot by studying concepts and ideas,but to really understand them,you have to work out the concept yourself.
Does not sound like you gave WC/WT/VT a fair shake,but thats your loss,you have been lucky enough to study Hsing-Yi,Bagua and now you have a Special Sifu in Yi-Chaun!!
Now you’ve got a chance to meet and exchange ideas and concepts with Sihing73!
“However, it would provide you an opportunity to expand your knowledge of Wing Chun and see if what you have been exposed to gives a fair representation of the art. Afterwards we could all go out for tea.”
I do wish you well Bak Mei in your training and life in general,your
passion for the CMA is admireable.
Instead of hearing about the shortcomings of WT/WC/VT I’d like to hear about the good side of yours.
Peace
Mors certa, hora incerta.