Last word on Wing Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Not true, I blew them off when they said I am wrong, that they are right, haven’t been training long, and offer no support for WHY they are right.

As for Bak Mei, it is me, I’m 27, been training since I was 4, so somewhere along the line someone misinterpreted my age for how long I have been training, but had “fuzzy math” and came up with 24 instead of 23.

Believe me, I brought up my exprience (no ranks in what I study, you know what you know and you’re ranked by who you can and can not beat) to establish some credentials to why I say what I say.

I don’t like all this talk and got drawn into it and that is by fault. I can admit when I am wrong. I’d much rather be face to face and say, “OK, come attack me and I’ll show you.” Believe me, and I mean this with my heart, I’d much rather fight this guy, because this is the contects in which I like to fight, to prove a martial point. Talk is cheep.

But, if someone came to my face, insulted my experince and is going to tell me I’m wrong, well then prove yourself right. Let’s go, no time like the present. This is what I hate about message boards and why I take long leaves.

We can;t fight over the board. So let’s exchange ideas. “You don’t understand” isn’t sharing anything. That already is judging ME. Is it that I don’t understand, or that I understand it better than you, been there, done that, completed, and have moved on. Is it that I understand it to be WAAAAAy inferior to other things which I have learned and continued to learn. I mean, the Wing CHun pole, how does that have ANY reputation at all – it is horse $hit! And believe me, I learned the pole from the best and that I can assure you.

Robert Chu, I am sure he holds some water to you as a Wing Chun gu. Yes. He whent through my sifu to get an itro to the “Pole King” in Chinatown to learn his pole. Not Wing Chun, but this other method. My master, Chan Bong, is the sole inheritor of this system. He would not teach Tobert Chu everything. WHY? Because he knew he would claim it to be WC and we can’t have that.

What I am saying is the truth, 100% so.

So, I will chill out. This conversation is over as far as I’m concerned. In surfing we use a term: when he see guys who obviously just baught their first brand new boards, and come with a cooler and the zink and the neon shorts and put the wax on the wrong side and talk about the barrels they were catching when it was visibly flat from sure and you can just :rolleyes: at their comments because you saw them slipping off their boards because the wax was on the wrong side: ITS CALLED A KOOK, and I believe that is who I have been carrying on a conversation with this afternoon.

No respect. Not willing to perhaps learn something, just keep paying the tutition, believe that the NUN can do it :rolleyes: so so can you, and rejoice in your ignorance. Wing Chun rules the world. Doesn;t matter that it was a throw together of a few systems to teach people how to fight quicly to rebel, doesn’t matter that it is not a complete system in and of itself, CERTAINLY not internal as much as you claim it to be and not worth teaching to anyone over 15, go ahead and revel in it.

Happy New Year:p

22

PS

AND THAT’S MY LAST WORD ON WING CHUN.

Sorry guys, its the internet so what else can I do, can’t snap backa head and take out the legs so, I’ll be an internet baby – wa, wa, wa

23

snore

24

Word Shaolinboxer.

Bak Mei, dude you really don’t get it do you. Am I judging you, yes, all people judge. It is those who percieve the most that can judge the best… So that being said I am sure that all systems have flaws. A lot of you have to remeber that martial arts is one of two things to people… either an excersise, or a way of life. Knowing a martial art should be a foundation to build upon. I try to use things that I learn from all instances to overcome adversity. You see, there are an infinite way of doing things, and people all have there own quirks. Same with styles and systems and methods and drills, etc. Please realize that all systems have there benefits, and it is good to know what they are, and how to use them. Maybe, just maybe, this is all opinion based (god haven’t heard this one yet). So build off of your foundation of critisism, doubt, and ingnorance. I am sure you can get a really big house built, I just don’t want to be around when doors begin to slam, 'cause your whole @#$t is going to come tumbling down. WC has some very valuable lessons within it, but it is within you to learn them.
You need to chill, meditate, and just realize that you are not the almighty, alknowing. And I have only been training a short while, ****, I know people who say that and have been doing it for 10 years.

25

You still have not answered any of the question sof why your art has merit. Shoalin Boxer, go to sleep or get off the board – this does not involve you.

I can dial my phone with my toes, that’s a method. Or I can just use my finger. I’m telling you you are using your toes, you’ll never out dial me. Hey, I;m the first to say you can be a good fighter after a year. I’ve never said that. Being a good fighter can happen in a few months if you are training right, not being strung out, but MA is a lifetime pursuit. I am a martial artits.

So pleae, tell me your theories, your pole technique and how it is suprior and for God’s sake WHY! Why fuk sau, even though it causes no damafge and actually brings me in. Yea, it will work on drunk joe at the bar, but you are goiing to ride me in? OK, you are asking for trouble there. O, your tan sau is going to keep menout, OK, could it be any more structuraly week? Your foundation is being built on sand.

26

There are many kinds of martial artists.

Bak Mei, you certainly seem to capture the essence of one of them.

27

Hi Bak Mei: Despite your chest pounding on your achievements
you still havent shown that you understand the principles of the fok, bong and tan which you mentioned or wing chun for that matter. It is ok for folks including yourself to feel that whatever you are doing is first rate.
i wouldnt presume to comment on bak mei or hisng i on the basis of what I have seen.
I am glad previous comments make you laugh- laughing is good for your health.
Again I have no idea about what you have seen and on the basis of your descriptions you exposure to wing chun is likely to be seriously flawed.
But sending people to NY?
Nah-IMO wing chun isnt a missionary enterprise. Why dont we discuss some substance instead of silly slams. We have a chance to make this list better than rec.ma.

28

Bak mei sez: (creating a straw man)
I already told you I think you have two major breaking points, your waist (you lean back when under fire) and your knees ( a **** poor pushing angle your art has).

I don’t know, right, so tell me

I will tell you on the first item- I dont lean back.
Enough. Guess the implications of the second from the first.
And, I dont beat my drums. My comments were in response to your overgeneralization about an art.

29

bak mei

You are so full of sh!t it’s not even funny. Wing Chun is not structurally weak. Only if it is mis-applied. I don’t know WTF you learned in your WC class. Probably one of those poser classes, yeah most WC kwoons are like that. No real contact. Yet, on another thread you seem to claim that it’s okay to integrate other training methods or techniques into your style. But your double standard is saying that if a WC player does this, its not WC anymore. There are some big-time bullsh!tters out there in the WC world, who try to play this weaker beats stronger crap and fight like a women sh!t, you don’t need to spar, chi sao gives you all the tools you need to win a fight, yeah that’s sh!t. That’s probably where you are basing your attitude. I have a completely different philosophy. I’m a WC player if I do any WC drills, period. If I practice WC stance turns with a vertical fist, then do bag work influenced by both WC and boxing, then it comes to a fight or contest and I do a move I learned from watching the 3 stooges, I’ll still say WC helped my shoulder turn so I punched him just a little harder. And I’ll call myself a WC man and a boxer. Wing Chun bad for pushing? Yes, not part of the system I am learning. You probably want to move into a bow stance for that. Wing Chun is a simplified system of Kung Fu, no one’s disputing that. However, you have to admit there’s a level of inovation involved in its simplicity. Does it have the most effective techniques? Not all of them, just some. Enough to form a self-contained system that’s pretty effective. Is there plenty there to learn for 20 years? Depends on what you want out of it. Some people want to train the same 3 techniques for 20 years, feel it will make them more effective and prevent confusion when it comes down to the real deal. Personally, I’ll never stop training WC, but I do take it upon myself to learn tactics and techniques from outside what most think of as the system. So does my teacher. If it helps us, we use it. But you know what? Wing Chun is just a logical extension of natural fighting. And I’d wager to say so are most MA’s. I would love to study other systems, especially internal MA’s. I may end up spending more instruction time outside of WC than within it. But to me, there is no point where it stops being WC and starts to become something else. Studying multiple styles or training methods (same thing!!!) is cumulative, not exclusionary. You know what? You’re still a karate man, because even though your mechanics are different now that time you spent in Karate shouting and breaking things is gonna help you have that little extra bit of force at the end of your punch. Criticizing WC movements is like criticizing Karate. Come on, it’s a punch! It’s a kick! It’s an outward block! It’s a rising block! You can’t criticize these things. It’s not like it’s picking your nose or playing the piano, these have little martial value. Or trying to execute some technique with an impossible degree of difficulty. What you choose to emphasize is up to you, but it is impossible to say that any martial technique is completely useless, always and forever. You may not like the high bon sao, for instance. This is .1% of the WC system, and if nothing else loosens your shoulder, which is a prelude to training the downward elbow, so there you go, it’s effective. You may like some other system better, so what? What do we care? WC has it’s area that it trains, it’s pretty much elbow-on the centerline kung fu, with a few notable exceptions that support this philosophy. No one is going to tell you that it’s good for clawing or wrestling, or holding you arms low or keeping your elbows out. Some of the techniques that you mentioned are found in other styles, that pak sao, the tan sao, the wu sao, so I think you are way off base in criticizing these techiniques. I don’t understand where you are coming from with the criticism, if it is jealousy over the popularity, or disgust at the preponderance of McWingChun, this I can understand. But your criticism of the techniques of the system make you come off as uneducated. These techniques were battle tested, most notably by people such as Dr. Leung Jan and the Red Junk fighters. It may not be the most complete martial art, yet it is completely useful to learn for practicioners of almost any style of fighting. Why? Because parts of it are very simple and demonstrate basic fighting concepts. That’s why the master of our school had his Praying Mantis students train WC once a week. It’s not the best system out there, it’s just a good one that has been very useful to some people. It is good training but you have to find the right instructor, hopefully someone not overly influenced by a personalized flavor of WC that Yip Man designed in Hong Kong for weaker body types. I read that Yip Man in his mainland days used to spar full force using body armor they made by stuffing clothes with straw, this is what I’m talking about. Now we have some instructors saying you don’t need to spar.
Gotta go.
-FJ

30

failed pac

I tell you this: I punch, you pac. The same hand continues in and pins your wu. You go to fight, my other hand grabs the elbow of your wu and I flip and break your wu arm. Don’t think it can happen? I’ll send photos.

if the pac “worked” you should not be able to grab my wu sau hand, so lets assume my pac failed. You pin my wu sau, with the same hand i failed to pac freeing that failed pac and allowing it to hit you in the face. define “flip”

I like you Bak Mei, you are not a troll, but you seem to have something against WC. I’d like to see any photos you might send me, my e-mail is in my profile. You’re in NY right? I’m out in Texas but hope to get out some this year, I’d love to meet you.

31

Awesome, yea I didn’t describe that so well.

I am confident that no WC guy can stop my attack with a pac. Let me explain this further. As soon as contact is made, and lets assume that you are not kook and your force is coming more toward me then side to side like a winshield wiper (we all know the window gets wet still) I’ll change chape, creare the bridge and then back it up with my left (left palm on the inside of right forearm and blow past the pac sau (two against one with me having better leverage because I am not extended, my attacks keep my arm in the beet chugging shape, strong leverage).

Now I’m plowing, you, or most WC, reaction is to try and fight it back with force, it won;t happen, but I fight everyone as if they are bigger than me so I being inside of you keep this shape and raise it, including you pac sau; the left hand which is pushing the right forearm acts as a natural shield, and I continue to drive the right towards your face, like a wedge thorugh your pac.

Instinctively the wu sau get’s involved, at that point your door is wide open, both your hands to stop the incoming blow that passed through the pac sau, I disengage the left palm from the forarm (its not needed anymore, the door is open and I don;t need its protection anymore because my right hand, let;'s say lap daued your wu sau now that its all the way in (this is a set up), the left palm get’s your wu sau arm’s elbow and I flip it inward, over your left pac (I through a right).

I can just continue my momentum and walk you into a wall, car, firehydren at this point, or Fa jin and snap.

Because I attack with both arms connected, I have a shield. If you pac, I’m under but can raise, my left forearm back sup my forarem and the two as as a shield, you try to get off a shot prematurely without controling me you open even further, the left disengages, gets you at you shoudler, the base, stopping the right (maybe a biel?) Now I’m inside completely, with momentum …

This is my experience – so far. My problem with Wing Chun is its practitioners. I’d like for them to say, you know what, this is abreat art, learn a lot of the core principles, very quickly too. But it’s not internal. The mere applying of that bothers me. There is no internal work in Wing Chun. That is utterly rediculous. I see books claiming Sil Lum Tao is internal.

Find, if you want to call that internal – fine. I’m sure it affects the chi in a positive manner in some way, so can walking, but that is not the internal I’m talking about.

I find Wing Chun players to be snobbish, and for no good reason. They believe their arts is the be all to gung fu, when it fact, it is merely a village art made popular because most of China’s imigrants came from the south since they were in most need of getting out at the time.

That’s Wing Chun. I’d even take aim at Yip Man’s lineage, for the man who taught him was suspect of having a true lineage but what’s the point. To WC players he can fly and shoot chi out his rear with his internal prowless.

Too me, its the same as Shotokan karate claiming to be on the same internal level as Taiji or Ba Gua, no way, to claim such is paposteruous. Maybe aikido could claim such, and that’s simply because its founder studied Ba Gua, but even there I’m sure, as a Japanese man, he was not given the inside goods … and it shows. Good style though, I respect aikido. WC too, I respect all my martial brothers, but let’s be honest…

And soemone telling me WC is internal, well, that’s not honest. C

32

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Polaris, how long ago did you move from Ohio?

April.

33

Now I’m plowing, you, or most WC, reaction is to try and fight it back with force,

on of WC first lessons should be never fight force with force, you always lose that game eventualy. A better reaction might be to “sink” the incomeing brige with a “ding jarn” motion, but its hard to tell over the net. or if i can sense the raise maybe “tok sau” and go under you?

As for WC “internal” aspect, well im a bit shakey on the whole internal/external thing. Ever read “the sword polishers record”? the auther goes over it in one article. that might be a good starting point for a new thread.

ps how’s that dead horse?

34

I dont know why some folks claiming to be wing chunners even bother responding to Bak mei’s continuing demonstation of his ignorance about wing chun. he is just tooting his own horn rather
than trying to explain or understand the varieties of CMA in a general
kung fu list. There are punches and there are punches- wing chun does not engage ina mechanical pak block. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing for understanding as “Bak mei” name holder not the art well demonstrates… again and again-removing all doubt.

35

Just when it gets interesting…

the thread ends!

Seriously, gotta side with Yuan Fen on this one. Too much testosterone and chest thumping. I find the empty kettle makes the loudest noise.

I’m a newbie period, so I can’t analyze Bak’s what-if this-n-that scenario, but I don’t think I could knock out Mike Tyson period if he gave me one free punch! :slight_smile: I defnitely need to keep training.

It takes introspection and a certain level of maturity. What if you train for 25 years and get creamed by a newbie? Does that mean the technique (wing chun, jkd, whatever) was wrong, they got lucky, or were you doing the technique wrong? Does this mean an entire system of kung fu / whatever is meaningless and inapplicable?

Peace!
:smiley:
Mokujin

36

I wasnt going to get into this and really don’t feel like arguing on the internet but… Bak Mei demonstrates straight up that he does not understand the essence of wing chun. we don’t really ‘block’, pak would not even be used like that, its not all about force against force, we deflect, we move, but we don;t stand there and block a strike like that. i bet you could punch thru my pak if i stood there and tried to execute it like a karate block, but thats not what its about, your missing the point and understanding of the applications. A good wing chun person would be fluid and on to something else, possibly smacking you in the head as you stand there and try to power your way through where the pak may have been for a split second. Wing chun and many cma do use internal power, not just tai chi and others that are labeled ‘internal’. Its not something you pick up right away so i can understand why its confusing.
And you also grossly misunderstand the structure and physics behind wing chun, you are not even close, rambling about shoulder strength, etc. I too have studied several different styles and I still practice many element, forms, exercises from them, and i think the wing chun structure is quite amazing and beautiful in its efficiency. Stucture is almost a misnomer, because it implies that it is static, but it is not.
I’m happy that you found a sifu that you are learning so much from and i agree with some of what you have said about technology, etc, but i really think you are misunderstanding some of the styles you are critiquing…and all those years of karate doesnt qualify you as an instant expert on all these other chinese styles. most wc people i have met are not snobs, i have no idea who youve trained with or where you got that, but don’t be predudiced because of it.
You seem like a ‘true believer’ that thinks whatever style youre currently studying is the ultimate, and then when you get your but whipped, you jump ship, bad mouth your old style and then ‘see the light’ in your new gig. i’ve met plenty of people like that and its like arguing about religion, nearly impossible to talk to.
I really don’t mean to offend you, but its bad form to go trashing other styles while in the same sentance displaying that you don’t have a very deep understanding of them.:rolleyes:

37

Bak Mei…

     Do you claim to know for certain that ALL wing chun is as you have described?   ...cause thats what it sounds like.
38

what’d u mean snap my bong sao? The bong sao doesnt just stay there waiting for u to snap it, when u punch all the bong sao comes out, deflects your punch, and continues to go forword turning into a punch and smaking u in the face.

39

Originally posted by Bak Mei
I’ve been studying since I was 4 years old. I’m 24.

and you were born on 5/2/74?

why are you guys even arguing with someone who either does not know his own age or his own bday?

40

Impressive bak mei, impressive