Last word on Wing Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I knew it would make you look: anyway:

I’m sick of arguing with WC guys and their answers are always the same: “Not at the higher levels.”

Well then d$amn it, the higher levels are not Wing Chun then, those people have transended Wing Chun, and have become their own fighters. BEcause Wing CHun, as TAUGHT, is low level, you just can’t fuk sau me! You’ll get drilled through everytime.

Why not start the training then at this higher level and throw away all the nonsense.

How important are the shoulders?upper back in MA? That’s the first question.

Now, using Bong Sau, that is putting the shoulder at its weakest point, raising. Try lifting full buckets off water on both sides by holding your arms out. Hard to do, the shoulder is weak this way, yet an entire art is built on it. The same with tan sau, the shoulder is weak that way too.

Breaking points, too many to count, but the waist and knee are two major ones.

WC, when done with principles that rely on shoulder power, good pushing angles, ect, is awesome. But I’d argue that that is not Wing Chun anymore.

WC guys do not hate me, this is a message board and simply my opinion.

PS I studyied WC for some time.

Ray

2

hmm i rarely did force vs force in wing chun, if there was bong sao i was not suppose to just stick my hand up (although we did that in some drills mostly for strengthening), it was done in a twisting motion, so you stand in front of the guy and lets say you block bong sao with your right hand then you’d twist to your left while blocking and then transist into something else (f.x. twist to my left and hence bringing the blow out of my centerline, then switch the blocking hand to backfist as i straighten my body out again).

I do agree with the fook sao, i never saw anything practical about it, especially that double fook sao they sometimes had me do, wtf was that all about.

3

The thing is this, WC always presumes you’ll be fighting wing chun. When you bong me, you WILL feel a force and I won’t be stepping anywear. I’ll drop my elbow making a wedge and you will feel all 210 pounds of me on your bong sau and it will be exploding into you. Your reaction will be to lift, and you won’t, and you’ll get pumpled.

I also consier the Wu sau a dead hand. I know, “It’s a moment in time, its going to do something.” BUT, that moment it’s not doing something is the same moment that the fight is lost. In battle their is not time for anyone standing around about to do something.

Better to let the punch pass the lead hand, so you can point the punch with it, and intercept with the back hand. Not intercept with the front hand and keep the back hand there just incase. Just incase what, the other guy is good, then its too late.

4

hmm i never said anything about stepping, i’m just talking about twisting your hips, redirecting the force. Then again i almost never block unless i have to, and if i do it’s usually double Kang Sao to block the roundhouse, i just try to get away from the punch and into a good position to counter attack.

5

Re. Bak Mei’s comments on wing chun. I appreciate your candor.
I have no idea what wc you have seen. Wing chun has spread too fast for it’s own good- so there is little quality control. So you rob yourself of understanding by generalizing whatever you have seen. Your comments show that you have no understanding of fok sao or bong sao as motions. This is a general kung fu section so I wont post elaborately here on wing chun. Best to stick to your own art- I respect the art but I dont know you.

6

I can understand your point as a WC player.

Qeysus, I like the double blocking reference to the kick. I double block everything. Not so much block as create a shield that I cannuse to create contact with force, use gung fu from their.

As for my Wing CHun, my WC sifu studied with Moy Yatt in Queens and Frank Yee is where he got his Hung Gar from. I’m sure it’s not the best Wing CHun out there, but better than most. There is A LOT of Wing CHun in NY, and most are doing it badly.
Maybe that’s why I say what I am saying. BUT, if NY is one of the capitals for gung fu in the USA, and Moy Yatt was one of the best …

I don’t know, I just see a lot of structural problems with WC. Not that a WC guy can’t mop the floor with me (I’m always willing to give it a go), I’d say it was the man, better, tougher, and not the art, because I see so many vulnerabilities; and I exploit them when I fight WC.

7

yeah i love the double block because it completely covers one side of my body (not countig the legs though). Like i said though i only use it as last resort because it takes too long to recover from, i can almost never counter attack if i use blocks (just takes to long the guy is out of range by that time), thats why i usually try to get out of the way of the blow and position myself better to counter attack, but that’s what i try to do :stuck_out_tongue: Not necesserily what i always manage to do.

8

Polaris, how long ago did you move from Ohio?

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See, I’m coming from the other side of the perspective, I NEVER COUNTER ATTACK. I findmyself getting into a COunter the counter of the counter then.

I;m doing my own thing. I’ll call it a block merely because it has elements in it that are defensive, but my twi handed shielding is offesnsive, in that it is going for your neck area, and will be turned into a chin shot, or diverted lower depending on what happens after contact. I am not countering though, just changing what I am doing. But my force is continuious. I will not stop, to block and then counter. I’m cominmg, you don’t block you get hit. You block , we hit and then I find the weak spot and continue drilling in.

Polaris, I do never met Moy Yatt. He was my teacher’s sifu at the time. I would argue that what you were learning was ahybrid Taiji Ba gua with the WC title thrown on it to bring in students – ala Bruce Lee. I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong.

What I do know is I don’t concern myself with teacher politics. I have my Master, master CHan Bong, and that’s all I need. There was pre-training with him, and now there is now.

I’ll say this. Everyone in the world aprears to be doing Wing Chun at a high level, everyone is doing right. Why aren’t they beating anybody worth a **** then out here in NYC. AN old training partner of mine is considered a God in the freemason lodge, he’s a WC guy. If that guy is God, my God, WC is in trouble.

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Bak mei: i repeat: you dont understand wing chun. The fact that you mention wu sao as a static move continues to show your ignorance. Why not talk about your Bak mei. You can comment on what you may have seen- doesnt mean that you know much about the art.
New york area and even the east coast is not the center of the world for lots of folks-including me- as far as kung fu is concerned. Lots of good masters settled elsewhere. As classic martial courtesy- I wont comment on Moy yat wing chun or William Cheung or Leung Ting.
But you obviously dont understand wu, bong fuk…things that you have mentioned.

11

Bak Mei, I have to agree with Yuanfen here, I am a fairly new student to WC and still see many of the things you are not, as well as understanding that WC is about STRUCTURE, and developement of power through that. The should is involved so much as it lines up with the rest of the structure of your body to deliver your power.
I think the problem is that you seem to not have enough of a base in WC. Alot of people make the mistake of assuming that just because something doesnt seem right to them it must not be right. Thats how MAs get watered down and weak, becasue people dont want to listen to the leassons that are decades and sometimes a few centuries old, and well tested. Fighting has always been fighting, doesnt matter where you come from or where you grew up, the fact is that WC has been tested over and over and over again, and much like thet other arts out there, it is effective.

12

why not chime in

The effectiveness of
Wing Chun as a fighting art was clearly established in Hong Kong in the 1950s.Wing Chun was an obscure style and went on to become very popular in Hong Kong due to the success of Wing Chun fighters in challenge matches.WC didnt win all of them but did win the majority.These fights are well documented in the newspapers of that era.Wing chun never would have grown so popular if it didnt have a real reputaion for effective fighting.This reputation was made against other styles of kung fu in Hong Kong.

The problem today is that most of Yip Mans students regard what they learned as a secret and do not teach the real stuff to all their students.Many were not even taught the best WC by Yip Man.It is clear from your posts that you were not taught the proper WC bong sau and if this is the bong sau Moy Yat taught to your Sifu then this is proof of my statement above.Size and success of a school is not evidence of the quality of the schools kung fu.

13

With all do respect, you guys make me laugh.

“I’ve only been studying Wing Chun for a short time…”

I’ve been studying since I was 4 years old. I’m 24. My current master was a student of Yip Man, he’ll be the first in line to **** on WC. I fight Wing Chun about once a week. Three times on a good week.

I fight some of the local commercial players. I also fight a few guys in Chinatown who are much more, a, better connected.

I would also say with confidence that I am not at the center of the MA world, but pretty **** close, especially in the context of the USA.

Hey, we disagree. But do not question my understanding of something that you believe your teacher tells you. Go out and test it. Test it against people who are not Wing Chun. Go find Hsing-I or Ba Gua, go find a heavy weight boxer, a hard hitter. Go Fuk Sau a Mike Tyson cross, and get your a$$ knocked down, because that’s what will happen.

I am first and foremost a fighter. I have gone as far with Wing Chun as I needed to go. It is not an art that requires 10 years. Like I said, I studied MA my entire life. I can move, I need to get a styles flavor. Those that taste sweet (work) I stay around and savor.

Again, maybe I;m wrong. Maybe you guys should send out some of you masters from Arizona to NYC chinatown, because we need your help. No ones bong sau out here is keeping me from snapping their head back.

I didn;t want this to turn into a WC debate. WC can be good, it just needs to be fixed. To much energy coming from the outside in or the inside out. Too much side to side, not enough in. The one IN, the Biel, is actually an inferior angle, there are better ways but I wouldn’t share them with you, your mindset is exactly the one I refer too.

Keep training your WC. Maybe I’ll see you out in the no hold bar events ina few years (yea, right).

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PS

I am insulted to have someone start a statement with, “I’ve only been training a short while but…”

I am a MA, and in this context I am your senior. You’re going to tell me. What, did you pick up a copy of inside kung fu talking baout the “deadly footwork of Wing Chun” or “the secret of Wing CHun ground fighting” walk into the local kwoon and now you know everything. I’ve been training hard for a long time. Please give me some evidence of your remarks.

What do you like about Wing Chun, what do you find affective. You guys are the pros. I already told you I think you have two major breaking points, your waist (you lean back when under fire) and your knees ( a **** poor pushing angle your art has).

I don’t know, right, so tell me. Tell me how you are going to prevent me from snapping your arm when you bong sau me. Tell me all the dangerous things you are going to do with your wu sua. I don’t know the art? Seems like I know more than at least one of you, probbaly both.

I tell you this: I punch, you pac. The same hand continues in and pins your wu. You go to fight, my other hand grabs the elbow of your wu and I flip and break your wu arm. Don’t think it can happen? I’ll send photos.

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You can freak out about being told something from someone of lesser experience than you that you are wrong but that doesnt make you right.
24 years of experience isnt worth a lick unless you actually Learn something. It s a lot of big talking ubt at 24 you still have a long way to go.
And thank you for helping me to make my point, I havent been doing it for long but I do see the applications that you have apparently missed in your 20 years experience. Whgat advice would I give you? Try harder maybe? Pay attention in class, stop talking so much and listen instead of assuming.
WC doesnt lean back, a bad practitioner leans back. and the knees are bent oin the fighting stance, increasing thier strength and your root.
Flipping in a fight that close to me? Well, send me the video, no choreography, just you doing this amazing feat.
You are maixed martial artist and that will always be your weakness, looking for the right answers elsewhere and not taking the time to work with the jewels you have.
IU see a lot of opinion from someone who is too interested in his own thoughts to see what is really going on. Maybe the WC “players” you came across were taught by the same class of sifu you were taught by, in that case, stop learning WC from who you are learning it from because it sounds like a waste of time.
And dont hand me any crap about your 24 years of freaking experience, nothing offends me more then some big talkmer on the internet who knows it all. At 24 years old you have a lot of growing up to do and you assessment of WC and its ability is a fine example of the growing you have to do, take a couple fo classes and then call yourself an expert…

16

YOU have revealed your level.

Try harder :slight_smile: :rolleyes:

Yea: “It didn’t work sifu.”

“Try harder!”

“Sifu, he was too fast.”

“Hit faster!.”

“Sifu, he was too strong.”

“Hit harder!”

My friend, you still have a Looooooooooooong way to go. You still have not realised that it can’t be about being faster or harder, because you will not be the fastest or hardest. I am hard. I broke my first board on, let me see, its in my office, my father made it into a display, hold on – 4/28/82. I was born in 5/2/74.

Broke my frist brick 2 years later. I am hard.

But now, at 27, I am also soft as water. I’ll come at you like a bull on crack (that is my intention, backed by my physical make up 5’11 210lbs) but when we meat I will mold right through and around you and break you – of that I am sure.

Try harder! Like I said, you make me laugh. Don;t assume everyone is like yourself or training mates. Some of us have been at this a long time, and in real situations.

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strength is often the greatest weakness

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I don’t think he meant doing a front flip,lol!!:slight_smile: But flipping the elbow over to break it!

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Are there two Bak Meis? Whicch one is 27 and which one is 24?
I’m 5’11, and 209 lbs, no joke, and my wrestling captain buddy who has been wrestling fo roughly 18 years and is larger then I by about 20 lbs has been taken down by me on numerous occasions. So it would seem experience does nto always win you the fight.
Besides, I tend not to ascribe a whole lot of credentials to someone who talks a whole lot about themselves and what they can do. Often times the talk leads to alck of something else…

“Don;t assume everyone is like yourself or training mates”

I was talking to and about you, none of my training mates shoots thier mouth off so consistantly about themselves and most of them posess the humility to know that no matter how long they have been training, they have a long way to go.

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Bak Mei

Dude, you need to chill out.

So far as ripping on the ‘beginner’. All they said was they’d only been training in WC for a short time - there was no mention that they may have trained in something else for a substantial period of time.

Also I think I not only speak for myself, as well as other, that I wouldn’t pass off the comments of a beginner so lightly. I know many martial artists who have trained half as long as their seniors and are far more skilled and proficient. Maybe you are better, maybe you can pummel them, but it sounds like you just blew them off the second they said they hadn’t trained long and i’m sure they had some valid points.

Take that into consideration.

Later. :slight_smile: