[QUOTE=MightyB;1228071]I love that we still have these circular arguments when the answers are so simple. Fuking get in the habit of sparring real people. End of story. It will cause you to fall in the spectrum of either destroying your confidence in Kung Fu or reaffirming it totally.[/QUOTE]
Sound advice.
Forms, and more forms, are always secondary anyway.
You may be taught forms first if you aren’t a longterm student or if your teacher is the just-for-performance type. Without forms you can already be turned into an expert through the training system apart from forms.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1228155]I just don’t understand the logic “TCMA training can’t be applied during an assault”.
If the person who attacks you has 10 years TCMA training, do you think his attack will be more effective on you compare to those attackers who has no MA training?[/QUOTE]
It’s about knowing what works from first hand experience; it galvanises everything you do when it comes to defending yourself. A huge proportion of BJJ and Muay Thai etc simply won’t be effective too.
To answer your question, I admit I think there could be an advantage, but you have to look into motivation behind an assault, and other factors. Cocaine makes people physically stronger, for longer, with a better chin. Alcohol raises emotions. In South Africa we have a drug called ‘Tik’ which turns people psychotic from sleep deprivation. Mix these up and you have a problem for even very experienced people.
People with no martial arts training are far more likely to compensate by carrying a weapon or going to further extents to fullfill what they need i.e. money for drugs etc etc
If you then mix that with multiple attackers, low light, uneven surfaces, and the constant fight to stop your body going into shutdown and tunnel vision from adrenaline and fear then it’s a situation that people in TCMA simply are not trained for.
I’m the first person to promote TCMA by the way, but for the right reasons. That’s why I say just enjoy it for what it is but don’t get confused.
Shaolin gets a lot of flack,
But to be honest guys, for most its at least 8 hours a day… Every single day. There is nothing else but training.
You can’t spar for 8 hours a day. You can’t even just train combat techniques for 8 hours a day.
These guys are not out to be pro sportsmen, nor is there an appropriate sport at present.
The point is the intense purpose, the journey, not any one particular skill. Training contains other things. Sure it does. 8 hours a day for gods sake, it has to. Lots of form, meditation, conditioning, acrobatics, running in the mountains, intense stretching, holding stances, all sorts of things next to the sparring.
Everyone likes to think, I could beat a shaolin monk at chisao, or at BJJ rolling, or in a boxing match and sure at a specific task you may well do. But train along side them for a few days if you can and you won’t look down on them.
[QUOTE=bigopen;1228190]
I’m the first person to promote TCMA by the way, but for the right reasons. That’s why I say just enjoy it for what it is but don’t get confused.[/QUOTE]
Words to live by.
There’s a lot of missing the moon for the finger.
Ch’an, Wu, Yi
Think about how many years the temple has been in peace rather than violence, now I’m not a historian but as far as I know, it’s far more time in peace than violence.
Consider that Kungfu has been practiced through most of the the temple’s history, and you’ll see that although it has been used in times of violence, it has mostly been a focus for meditation and health.
People get the most from Kungfu when they understand it.
ps my Shifu is better than your Shifu.
Only joking.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1228192]Shaolin gets a lot of flack,
You can’t spar for 8 hours a day. .[/QUOTE]
No one’s saying you have to spar 8 hours a day… but remember when “playing hands” was fun and something people did enjoy? Whenever a couple of “masters” or kung fu brothers got together - punches were thrown. Not in malice, more as a test of skill and a way to experiment and play. People don’t do that anymore. And now they rarely even spar. It’s all ego, fear of losing. Winning and losing shouldn’t even be a part of it because it’s play. And then you have people ripping on Shaolin and all Traditional Martial Arts for good reason. It’s because people by and large don’t know how to spar in TCMA. Don’t believe me, then read every single thread on any of the forums.
So here’s the simple answer. Start sparring again. Play hands. Enjoy.
**Observations based on Midwestern United States. I have no idea how it is in the rest of the world.
First of all, what’s wrong with kickboxing?
Why can’t kickboxing be the sparring?
Isn’t martial arts kickboxing / boxing / wrestling or a combination of those anyway?
do you really fight standing on one leg with your arms in the air waiting for Johnny to try and sweep your leg?
Good kung fu is direct.
The main thing about fighting is the guts to do it. the conditioning to stay in and the last thing is technique.
If you want to see a bunch of posing, then some artful attacking, go watch a movie.
In the meantime, martial arts looks like fighting when it’s applied and very little, in fact, I’d say NO fighting in a real sense looks like that which you see in chop sokey flicks.
the principles of attack and defend are the same across the board. A western boxer is gonna knock your teeth out the same way a good kung fu guy can.
[QUOTE=bigopen;1228196]
Think about how many years the temple has been in peace rather than violence, now I’m not a historian
[/QUOTE]
shaolin monks are traditionally, very, very, very violent, and very crazy. today they do all that peace love meditation sh1t to survive modern times and make money.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1228213]First of all, what’s wrong with kickboxing?
Why can’t kickboxing be the sparring?
Isn’t martial arts kickboxing / boxing / wrestling or a combination of those anyway?
Good kung fu is direct.
The main thing about fighting is the guts to do it. the conditioning to stay in and the last thing is technique.
[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with kickboxing, but I’m starting to disagree a little about all fighting looking the same. That’s kind’ve sort’ve true IMO, but I’m beginning to see some nuances and I don’t think a solid traditional fighter will look like kickboxing 100%. By kind’ve sort’ve true is that techniques that work are universal, but there’s some nuances… por ejemple, from my perspective TCMA should be less bouncy on the approach, you’ll probably see less trading shots from a distance (at least should see less), you should see an attempt at redirection and control / trapping, there should be a presence or interplay of yao / gong, and some play at locks. Some hooking on the hands / arms… etc. Lot’s of pak choi / chopping to create openings and a few palm techniques. Should be some shin kicking and nut shots thrown in for good measure (not actually connecting on the nut shots, just show that you could do them)… anyway
Just some thoughts.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1228186]You may be taught forms first …[/QUOTE]
I have a student who has been with me for 12 years and I haven’t taught him any forms yet. I do know more than 50 forms and I did win many 1st places in form competition in the past. I just don’t think form is the right way to start your training.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1228216]I have a student who has been with me for 12 years and I haven’t taught him any forms yet. I do know more than 50 forms and I did win many 1st places in form competition in the past. I just don’t think form is the right way to start your training.[/QUOTE]
kung fu world needs more heroes like you.
[QUOTE=bigopen;1228196]Consider that Kungfu has been practiced through most of the the temple’s history, and you’ll see that although it has been used in times of violence, it has mostly been a focus for meditation and health.[/QUOTE]
You only talk about one part of Kung Fu, and you only talk about “solo” training.
Kung Fu training is good for health but when you are sparring/wrestling with your challenger, I just don’t see any “meditation” there. Can you find any meditation in the following 2 clips?
imo a tcma will adapt, and strive to meet regional/local and modern combat necessities.
i think many times people say ‘traditional chinese martial arts’ when they really mean ‘Antiquated’, ‘dead’ or ‘stagnant’ chinese martial arts. an actual tcma will have cross training and a modern approach to self defense and combat. the traditional aspects that hold up to modern scrutiny will be retained, the unecessary will be eliminated. this of course in regards to combat oriented and focused training martial arts.
No one is going to fair well in a multiple attacker drug induced psycho mosh attack. This is why riot police wear armor, use shields, weapons, and work in teams. No amount of training will see you out of a situation that has you facing off against multiple people who want to due you violence if you choose to stay and fight. Running in that situation is your only option unless you posess superior weaponry and a method of not taking extreme damage to your body. The best method in this case is distance and firepower. Not a very likely scenario.
In regards to general violence that people experience on a regular basis around the world, Chinese martial arts are just as good as any other combat training, if you train with the proper intention and find a school that meets that need.
i think however, we can all agree that finding that school is the first obstacle, and may not always be an option depending on where you are.
[QUOTE=bawang;1228217]kung fu world needs more heroes like you.[/QUOTE]
I told my guys, “When you are young, you should go to test your skill against as many people and as many different styles as you can. The day you are too old to do so, I’ll teach you forms.”
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1228213]what’s wrong with kickboxing?[/QUOTE]
Since roundhouse kick is not emphasised in TCMA, the 1st time that I used it in sparring was by accident. Both my opponent and I had right side forward. In the middle of the sparring, my opponent suddently switched his left side forward. My right back leg just swung toward his open chest subcounciously without any order from my brain.
To me, kickboing is the most natural way to fight. You just attack when you see an opening.
Disregarding fantasy…
Still abdicating the Bruce Lee use whatever works mentality, you guys don’t feel a difference between kickboxing and a traditional approach during stand up?
for instance, using a grab with a pak choi to open them up for a straight shot etc. I don’t think you see that sort of thing in kickboxing.
A kickboxers may use his low roundhouse kick to hurt his opponent’s leading leg. A TCMA guy may use foot sweep to knock his opponent’s leading leg off the ground. The purpose may be different, but it may look similiar.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1228252]A kickboxers may use his low roundhouse kick to hurt his opponent’s leading leg. A TCMA guy may use foot sweep to knock his opponent’s leading leg off the ground. The purpose may be different, but it may look similiar.[/QUOTE]
Maybe…
So Yes, Same result but major difference in execution.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1228257]Maybe…
So Yes, Same result but major difference in execution.[/QUOTE]
Both clips show serious commitment. If you just use it to set up something else then you don’t need to commit that much.