kung fu sparring without kickboxing

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
61

I think kickboxing, or at least the tools used in kickboxing are the basic framework from which all styles build on. Each style has it’s own flavor especially after the advanced techniques are fully developed, but all of them should use the basics which could be described as kickboxing.

If the tools of kickboxing aren’t used in sparring/fighting then the student isn’t fighting naturally or maybe just skipped the basics.

I also feel that the more tools you have the better, but that isn’t to say a fighter who only masters the basics can’t be great. In most cases the basic kickboxing or ground fighting tools are all that are needed, that is as long as the fighter has fully developed those basics. Probably the most important reason to gather more tools for the toolbox other than to actually use them is simply to be able to understand what they are and to learn how to counter those who do use them.

62

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1228262]Both clips show serious commitment. If you just use it to set up something else then you don’t need to commit that much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjMrqcGuvWM&feature=youtu.be[/QUOTE]

Your clip shows the rounded kick like movement better, but in my mind it’s still fundamentally different than a thai round kick… but anyway

One thing I’ll say to get back to the thread starter. Something that I’ve been thinking about lately… It’s hard to put into words but - Shaolin, or TCMA cannot be thought of as somehow “different” than other martial arts. You have to approach it like how you’d think a kickboxer or MMAist would approach it if Shaolin was his “bag of tools” to draw from… It’s a conceptual thing, but I think mentally people put TCMA on a weird pedestal.

63

[QUOTE=MightyB;1228267]I think mentally people put TCMA on a weird pedestal.[/QUOTE]

Nail-head meet hammer!

64

[QUOTE=MightyB;1228215]Nothing wrong with kickboxing, but I’m starting to disagree a little about all fighting looking the same. That’s kind’ve sort’ve true IMO, but I’m beginning to see some nuances and I don’t think a solid traditional fighter will look like kickboxing 100%. By kind’ve sort’ve true is that techniques that work are universal, but there’s some nuances… por ejemple, from my perspective TCMA should be less bouncy on the approach, you’ll probably see less trading shots from a distance (at least should see less), you should see an attempt at redirection and control / trapping, there should be a presence or interplay of yao / gong, and some play at locks. Some hooking on the hands / arms… etc. Lot’s of pak choi / chopping to create openings and a few palm techniques. Should be some shin kicking and nut shots thrown in for good measure (not actually connecting on the nut shots, just show that you could do them)… anyway

Just some thoughts.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. There is occasionally someone who really does float like a butterfly. I’ve known guys who had definite style when they fought and there are even some on say the ufc circuit that have ridiculous style (Anderson Silva comes to mind).

65

well kickboxing is a fine sport and fighting system. but for me ,i already have a second degree black belt in an eclectic system that for the most part could say it’s stand up is kickboxing. has all the blocks and stance and attacks that kickboxing has. so if i learn shaolin,and do all these cool moves from the forms ,stances grabs and strike simultaneously,sweeps qi na… why do i need all this if i will simply kickbox. i could save a lot of time.

i have been playing around with some idea on how to use kung fu.and came up with this,so far. besides the conditioning drill mentioned on another thread,like arm banging ect. and two person application work ,can do some sparring drill that encourage the use of the techniques you practice in the forms and are the core of the system.

for example,start by crossing forearms. this range seems to encourage traps grabs and strike that are seen in our forms. begin with a drill half speed,one person will do any three attacks and the other can just defend,take turns attacking and defending, stick to three techniques at a time no more. or do a round like this. one person is the attacker, doing combos of three, after the round switch roles. after both sides have done offense and defense. do a round of free sparring,staring from crossing arms position.

66

[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1228311]well kickboxing is a fine sport and fighting system. but for me ,i already have a second degree black belt in an eclectic system that for the most part could say it’s stand up is kickboxing. has all the blocks and stance and attacks that kickboxing has. so if i learn shaolin,and do all these cool moves from the forms ,stances grabs and strike simultaneously,sweeps qi na… why do i need all this if i will simply kickbox. i could save a lot of time.

i have been playing around with some idea on how to use kung fu.and came up with this,so far. besides the conditioning drill mentioned on another thread,like arm banging ect. and two person application work ,can do some sparring drill that encourage the use of the techniques you practice in the forms and are the core of the system.

for example,start by crossing forearms. this range seems to encourage traps grabs and strike that are seen in our forms. begin with a drill half speed,one person will do any three attacks and the other can just defend,take turns attacking and defending, stick to three techniques at a time no more. or do a round like this. one person is the attacker, doing combos of three, after the round switch roles. after both sides have done offense and defense. do a round of free sparring,staring from crossing arms position.[/QUOTE]

Cool Beans Wiz Cool! Sounds like we’re walking along the same path. The trick will be to find ways to safely close the distance and create that forearm bridge in freestyle sparring.

67

I have no idea why you feel it’s necessary to try and disregard kickboxing. It’s a solid base. You should be able to execute any of your more severe gong fu moves from your kickboxing base.

As one poster said, some people put CMA on a weird pedestal and it isn’t going to work. The thinking that “if I’m fighting from a practical kickboxing base stance then I’m not utilizing my gong fu training” is completely wrong.

My teacher taught us to spar using San Da rules.

We practiced applications in drills.

As you get better and things start to feel automatic they merge together naturally. Then it’s just a matter of learning timing.

If a couple of us advanced guys are sparring and someone leaves an arm or foot out there too long it’s perfectly acceptable and pretty **** funny to put the other guy on his ass. It’s all Shaolin.

68

Shaolin kung fu has a lot of cool, effective techniques (which contain all the kickboxing techniques as a very little portion, which are the simplest techniques); but using all these Shaolin techniques in fight needs some knowledge. NOW, most the people who practice Shaolin kung fu don’t know how to use Shaolin techniques in fight, except those simplest ones, so they can only act like kickboxers!

69

[QUOTE=LFJ;1228186]Without forms you can already be turned into an expert through the training system apart from forms.[/QUOTE]
this is possible, but many concepts are conveyed via the flow of the forms in a perfect manner. if not impossible, it would be very hard to grasp them only via individual techniques.

70

[QUOTE=SHemmati;1228339]this is possible, but many concepts are conveyed via the flow of the forms in a perfect manner. if not impossible, it would be very hard to grasp them only via individual techniques.[/QUOTE]

The form only record one possible sequence. If you analyze yourself, you will find all possible sequences yourself.

For example, your form may have a groin kick, face punch combo. You assume that your opponent may drop his arm to block your groin kick and leave his face open. If you analyze yourself, when you throw a groin kick, how many different ways that your opponent may react?

If your opponnt

  • step back, since your face punch may not be able to reach to your opponent’s face, you will need another kick to close the distance.
  • raise his leg to block, since both of his arms may still guard his head, your face punch may not be able to go through his guard.
  • deflect your kick and force your body to spin, you may have to use spin back fist instead of the original straight face punch.
  • …

Which way can you understand combat in more detail? Learn the form pattern, or analyze the situation all by yourself?

71

[QUOTE=MightyB;1228215] I’m starting to disagree a little about all fighting looking the same. [/QUOTE]
If you can make your opponent to think that you are a kick-boxer because you fight like a kick-boxer, it will be to your advantage when you suddenly turn the striking game into your favor grappling game. You may start your fight as a kick-boxer, it’s how you will finish that’s important.

72

[QUOTE=Scythefall;1228321]

My teacher taught us to spar using San Da rules.

We practiced applications in drills.

As you get better and things start to feel automatic they merge together naturally. Then it’s just a matter of learning timing.

If a couple of us advanced guys are sparring and someone leaves an arm or foot out there too long it’s perfectly acceptable and pretty **** funny to put the other guy on his ass. It’s all Shaolin.[/QUOTE]

This is an approach I’ve endorsed. Teach San Shou / San Da first then traditional. My thought being that after a person was well conditioned to a pressured sparring environment, they’d be able to start drawing from their traditional techniques to create those “oh $hit, what the F–K was that?” moments to their opponents. And, as they got better, they’d be able to create more of those moments for their opponents - hence me saying that a well versed, good, experienced traditionalist will kind’ve sort’ve look like kickboxing, but not really.

73

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1228382]The form only record one possible sequence. If you analyze yourself, you will find all possible sequences yourself.

For example, your form may have a groin kick, face punch combo. You assume that your opponent may drop his arm to block your groin kick and leave his face open. If you analyze yourself, when you throw a groin kick, how many different ways that your opponent may react?

If your opponnt

  • step back, since your face punch may not be able to reach to your opponent’s face, you will need another kick to close the distance.
  • raise his leg to block, since both of his arms may still guard his head, your face punch may not be able to go through his guard.
  • deflect your kick and force your body to spin, you may have to use spin back fist instead of the original straight face punch.
  • …

Which way can you understand combat in more detail? Learn the form pattern, or analyze the situation all by yourself?[/QUOTE]
this shows a special instinct and perseverance. however, the well-known argument ‘no real combat scene is like any form!’ is a result of a misunderstanding. a form is not to simulate a fighting scene, but to teach a style. styles are special to the major Chinese schools, like Shaolin, Wudang, etc, so it’s usual for Karate, Taekwondo, and other styles practitioners not to know the purpose of the forms, and so repeat that stupid argument.

Karate, Taekwondo, etc have a plain system, so if you’ve learned the techniques, you’ve learned the style! but in Chinese martial arts, the forms may have exactly the same technical contents, but have totally different styles. the technical contents of Shaolin 3-road Pao quan and 3-road Tong Bi quan are almost the same, which is on the same technical base as Xiao Hong quan. so that if i teach you only the techniques of Xiao Hong, Pao, and Tong Bi quan, you see they are of the same system. only when you learn the styles through the forms, the frequency and flow of Xiao Hong, Pao, and Tong Bi techniques show you 3 totally different strategies, different styles. when you master the forms you learn the styles and all their special strategies. now, how you’re going to use those styles in a real combat is totally up to you. however, in SongShan Shaolin it’s recommended not to pre-simulate any combat scene, nobody can predict anything, it may be out of any logical frame you are familiar with!

another similar misunderstanding is a punch being a punch or a block being a block! like they do in non-Chinese martial arts! in Shaolin Wushu you cannot say that technique is a groin attack, this techniques is a face punch…, every movement in SongShan Shaolin (and most other Chinese schools) is everything, i.e., it has at least some dozens of blow, push, block, grab (qinna), take down, etc applications. so punching a face is only one possible application of all the possible applications. as an important example, the techniques that may seem the same in Xiao Hong quan, Pao quan, and Tong Bi quan, though seeming the same, mostly are of totally different purposes.

74

Karate, Taekwondo, etc have a plain system, so if you’ve learned the techniques, you’ve learned the style!

you must not know much about karate then. Some of the systems are very indepth with many varying systems surrounding.

75

[QUOTE=MightyB;1228316]The trick will be to find ways to safely close the distance and create that forearm bridge in freestyle sparring.[/QUOTE]
I have always believed that TCMA can give a much safer entry. When I see a wrestler uses single leg to take his opponent down, he has to take the risk to be kicked, kneed, punched, and elbowed. If a TCMA guy uses his leading leg to “jam” his opponent’s leading leg and also uses his hands to “guide” his opponent’s arms away from his entering path, he will have much safer entry.

76

I don’t think traditional Kung Fu looks like kickboxing in application.

The Goal in fights outside the ring is never the fight itself, it is something else. Not to make the fight more of a fight. It is something a lot of people don’t understand until they actually fight.

If you fight and make the fight solely about fighting, then you should not be surprised that it looks like other fights of the same nature. But if you add a goal, a purpose to your combat, one that is outside the fight, then you will see the value of the traditional technique.

Its not about the rules you play, its about the situation, the scenario, the purpose, the intent.

77

SHemmati last post of yours was very imformative,good read thanks.

78

[QUOTE=SHemmati;1228722]every movement in SongShan Shaolin (and most other Chinese schools) is everything, i.e., it has at least some dozens of blow, push, block, grab (qinna), take down, etc applications. [/QUOTE]
When you (general YOU) think that you have everything, you may have nothing. A principle can be mapped into many techniques, but you still need to develop one technique at a time. I have seen a school used “principle” approach. their students knew everything (in theory) but can’t do anything (in combat).

Many people think that to bend the head down to touch the knee can be used as hip throw or shoulder throw. Since hip throw and shoulder throw will require different

  • set up,
  • entering footwork, and
  • body control points,

just to bend your head down (principle) is far from enough. Anybody who has training Judo will understand that a throw is more than just to “push the head down and sweep/hook the leg up.”

79

[QUOTE=SHemmati;1228722]this shows a special instinct and perseverance. however, the well-known argument ‘no real combat scene is like any form!’ is a result of a misunderstanding. a form is not to simulate a fighting scene, but to teach a style. styles are special to the major Chinese schools, like Shaolin, Wudang, etc, so it’s usual for Karate, Taekwondo, and other styles practitioners not to know the purpose of the forms, and so repeat that stupid argument.

Karate, Taekwondo, etc have a plain system, so if you’ve learned the techniques, you’ve learned the style! but in Chinese martial arts, the forms may have exactly the same technical contents, but have totally different styles. the technical contents of Shaolin 3-road Pao quan and 3-road Tong Bi quan are almost the same, which is on the same technical base as Xiao Hong quan. so that if i teach you only the techniques of Xiao Hong, Pao, and Tong Bi quan, you see they are of the same system. only when you learn the styles through the forms, the frequency and flow of Xiao Hong, Pao, and Tong Bi techniques show you 3 totally different strategies, different styles. when you master the forms you learn the styles and all their special strategies. now, how you’re going to use those styles in a real combat is totally up to you. however, in SongShan Shaolin it’s recommended not to pre-simulate any combat scene, nobody can predict anything, it may be out of any logical frame you are familiar with!

another similar misunderstanding is a punch being a punch or a block being a block! like they do in non-Chinese martial arts! in Shaolin Wushu you cannot say that technique is a groin attack, this techniques is a face punch…, every movement in SongShan Shaolin (and most other Chinese schools) is everything, i.e., it has at least some dozens of blow, push, block, grab (qinna), take down, etc applications. so punching a face is only one possible application of all the possible applications. as an important example, the techniques that may seem the same in Xiao Hong quan, Pao quan, and Tong Bi quan, though seeming the same, mostly are of totally different purposes.[/QUOTE]

Good post, with the exception of your generalizations about karate and other non-Chinese MA. In particular, many of the Okinawan-based karate systems are very sophisticated, have many variations of applications of same techniques, etc. Meeting a real expert can turn such opinions upside-down.

Such generalized statements regarding karate and other non-CMA are just as misinformed as those who state that all CMA is ineffective, flowery dancing.

80

if you train kung fu because you think its more “complex” “graceful” “advanced” etc, you will never have real kung fu.