[QUOTE=pazman;1227829]Wiz Cool C, how do you spar with your Shaolin teacher?[/QUOTE]
no we never spar, he does show me applications and we have done some two man drills. i feel like i am being disrespectful, and feel awkward if i ask to spar with him. almost like there is an unwritten rule that are not supposed to. and i don’t mind it either. but if i got a very clear answer on how to use the techniques in class ,i could find a friend to spar with and work applications.
the only sparring i have done in china for 7 years is from shuai jiao,which is throw sparring. and a few times some mma and striking sparring with my one shuai jiao coach Yao,who is a pro mma fighter with a shuai jiao background. and i have studied hung gar ,bagua ,shaolin and ying qi gong here,along with shuai jiao.
[QUOTE=Lucas;1227860]I personally have a ‘street’ version of my two shaolin sets I still retain. the reason i did this was for myself, so that i have built up repetition of doing these things from my own personal point of movement and feel for fighting. if you are expecting to just take these large movements and adapt them at the time you need them, i dont think thats going to be as successuful as it could be if you prepared ahead of time. for that what i did is raised the stances, tightened up my guards and shortened most of the movements, excepting long range attacks. after i started doing this i noticed a difference in my sparring after some time. imo blocking is one of those things, that is purely instinctual and you have to rely on your training and muscle memory. you arent going to have a thought process of; ‘oh i better block this’ you just do it. what your follow up is after/during a block really just depends on your reaction, whats available, and how quickly your body reacts and exploits an opening.[/QUOTE]
my teacher also was explaining this last class about shorting up the stances and the techniques from the forms. but it still seems vague. i already know a **** load of martial arts,how to block all types of attacks from a modern fighting stance,and could teach this as well. i just feel like i wish i could get it from the kung fu.but honestly seems it is not there. even that shaolin fighting clip posted. it is a bit obvious that teacher does not have that much sparring experience. cause if he did he would eventually change his fighting stance. there is a reason all pro or competitive fighters keep their hands up. i think we have all seen this before. some video of a traditional guy fighting an experienced fighter. he comes out overly confident,in some kooky stance. and after a minute or two of eating some hard punches he starts to change his stance to a boxers type stance.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1227757]Now I know this guy will be criticized by our san da friends for not holding his hands up, but watching him, you can see that he’s smooth and competent.
You would do well to take this guy very seriously if for some reason you provoked him into a fight.
I wouldn’t criticize him for his skills or style, I would criticize him for his choice in sparring partner. The kid had very little to no experience and the monk was basically just picking on him.
One would be a fool to take any opponent lightly regardless of their martial background. As we say, “everyone has a puncher’s chance.”
I don’t think sparring looks any different way. The basic strikes you see performed are prey much the same amongst all styles. If you watch Thai boxing, kyokushin, tkd and longfist, you will see the same strikes, for the most part. differences can be seen in footwork (or lack of footwork). Not “looking like kung fu” can be frustrating to some people - it used to upset me because the only time I “looked like” I was doing kung fu was during applications work and chin na.
please don’t mix non-Chinese martial ideas with Shaolin fighting logic.
in other martial arts, like Karate, Taekwondo, etc, they show you a technique and say ‘this is a block,’ ‘this is an attack,’ etc. this is not the case in Shaolin fighting logic. in Shaolin, and all the other ancient kung fu styles, every movement is considered everything, whether defense or attack, block or press, take-down or throwing, …, even for qigong practice. if we don’t know it, we should practice more, learn more, and then practice more again and again. for example, i can safely say, for your question, every movement you see in, e.g., Xiao Hong quan, every movement, can be used as many kinds of block. so when you ask somebody who has trained under this principle he may look at you and say what??? because in his view every movement is a block, and asking him how he blocks is like asking him about what movements he knows in general! and you know, it is almost impossible to list every movement you know!
however, most the modern Shaolin monks have not been taught under this principle. they’ve mainly learned the forms, and may even know one or a few applications for many movements in the forms, but they still have no idea how to fight with those forms!
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1228045]please don’t mix up non-Chinese martial ideas with Shaolin fighting logic.
in other martial arts, like Karate, Taekwondo, etc, they show you a technique and say ‘this is a block,’ ‘this is an attack,’ etc. this is not the case in Shaolin fighting logic. in Shaolin, and all the other ancient kung fu styles, every movement is considered everything, whether defense or attack, block or press, take-down or throwing, …, even for qigong practice. if we don’t know it, we should practice more, learn more, and then practice more again and again. for example, i can safely say, for your question, every movement you see in, e.g., Xiao Hong quan, every movement, can be used as many kinds of block. so when you ask somebody who has trained under this principle he may look at you and say what??? because in his view every movement is a block, and asking him how he blocks is like asking him about what movements he knows in general! and you know, it is almost impossible to list every movement you know!
however, most the modern Shaolin monks have not been taught under this principle. they’ve mainly learned the forms, and may even know one or a few applications for many movements in the forms, but they still have no idea how to fight with those forms![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=-N-;1228055]When it cuts over the other guy’s punch from the outside.
Your forearm redirects his punch while you land on his face.
Boxers do it all the time.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I seriously thought this was common knowledge amongst CMA practitioners. My teacher always told me, “I will show you three applications for every technique you learn, it’s up to you to learn the other 100.”
the subject is interesting. i can list the levels of combat training in Shaolin quan in a rough scheme as:
learn the forms -> learn their combat applications -> learn more forms -> learn more applications -> learn more combat applications for the same techniques -> spar -> learn to spar with imaginary opponents while you perform the forms -> spar with opponents, whether imaginary or real, barehanded or with weapons, single or in groups (in many Taoist circles, as their level of mastery gets higher and higher, fighting in the mind, with imaginary opponents, becomes more and more important than fighting with real opponents! you guess why.) -> combine different forms and their applications together -> try to test every movement in every situation in your imaginary and real sparrings -> deduce new applications yourself -> later on, you’ll know many applications for every movement -> and so you’ll know how to use every movement in many situations, as part of your instinct -> at the highest levels of mastery, you may be able to do almost all the applications you have in your mind with only one or a few forms!!! (there are stories about great masters who have concentrated only on one form, like Xiao Hong quan, and have done the other forms rarely thereafter!)
in parallel with this technical development, the practitioners learn various principles from time to time, and may even deduce their own principles as well! also they must develop basic requirements and improve their body and mind qigong. the procedure is the same for many other schools, like Wudang, etc.
I love that we still have these circular arguments when the answers are so simple. Fuking get in the habit of sparring real people. End of story. It will cause you to fall in the spectrum of either destroying your confidence in Kung Fu or reaffirming it totally.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1228071]I love that we still have these circular arguments when the answers are so simple. Fuking get in the habit of sparring real people. End of story. It will cause you to fall in the spectrum of either destroying your confidence in Kung Fu or reaffirming it totally.[/QUOTE]
those foreign tourst students that come out of the dengfeng shaolin factory were taught nothing and talk about nothing. their form teaches nothing and means nothing. they train by the power of imagination.
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1228064]learn the forms -> learn their combat applications -> …[/QUOTE]
There is another way to develop skill.
Starting from one offensive technique A.
If your opponent may respond in 4 different way (it doesn’t have to be 4), you need to train how to respond to each situation (assume it’s A1, A2, A3, A4).
If your opponent again may respond in 4 different way, you need to train how to respond to each situation (assume it’s A11, A12, A13, A14, A21, A22, A23, A24, A31, A32, A33, A34, A41, A42, A43, A44).
When you can reach to 4 levels depth (it doesn’t have to be 4). you can take each 4 moves combo, and make it into both partner drills and solo drills (for example, A -> A2 -> A23 -> A232).
After you have trained the offensive side, you switch with your partner and train your defensive side.
Later on you link all your drills into a form (if you want to).
Advantage of this approach:
You don’t need to depend on the TCMA forms. You can create your own drills and forms.
You will understand the combat situation to the final detail.
When you apply technique A, if it works, fine. If it doesn’t work, according to your opponent’s respond, you will go into next level A1, …, A4. You will be more willing to try your technique even if the opportunity is not perfect. Your attack A just want to create another opportunity for your next level attack A1, …, A4.
you guys, Mighty and bawang, every kung fu master will only teach you one or a few applications for every movement at most, these applications are usually more complicated than kickboxing simple techniques. 1st, you must learn in which situation those applications are applicable, 2nd, you must deduce more and more applications. for this, you have to imagine different situations, and try to test your techniques. if any idea comes to mind, then you can test it in actual situations. besides, when you’re at a high level, you can safely analyze everything without even testing it, in addition, you cannot put yourself into a dangerous situation to learn or test something, that’s why you must have a powerful analyzing power, to imagine and analyze every possible case. there’s no other way to prepare yourselves for ultimate situations.
if you’d had ever analyzed any form in your minds, the concept of ‘fighting in the mind’ must not be strange to you! have you ever learned any forms? if yes, have you ever thought on its applications then?
I once fought a worthy adversary, who being an orphan was, ‘Nameless’ at a chess house in the rain. The only thing was that our battle was in our minds. This type of training proved to be quite useful that day.
[QUOTE=Brule;1228142]I once fought a worthy adversary, who being an orphan was, ‘Nameless’ at a chess house in the rain. The only thing was that our battle was in our minds. This type of training proved to be quite useful that day.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1228141]you have to imagine different situations, and try to test your techniques.[/QUOTE]
Agree!
First you will need to have a training partner. You just can’t develop any useful skill by yourself “solo”.
You can start with “offensive” technique A, your opponent may respond 4 different ways such as B1, B2, B3, B4 (it doesn’t have to be 4).
You then respond with A1, A2, A3, A4. For each of your respond A1, …, A4, your opponent may respond B11, B12, B13, B14, B21, B22, B23, B24, B31, B32, B33, B34, B41, B42, B43, B44.
You then respond with A11, A12, A13, A14, A21, A22, A23, A24, A31, A32, A33, A34, A41, A42, A43, A44.
After you have reached to 4 levels (it doesn’t have to be 4), you then have created a set of 4 moves combo drills. You can use those combo drills to train with partner or to train solo.
Later on you can link all your drills into a from (if you want to).
You can also switch with your opponent so you can train B1, B11, … counters.
The advantage of this approach are:
You can create your own drills or forms. You don’t have to depend on TCMA forms.
You will understand combat in great detail.
Even the opportunity for you to apply technique A may not be perfect, you go ahead appply it anyway. This way, your opponent’s respond may lead you into your next level techniques.
In my opinion, if you want to learn how to fight you have to go though the ‘fire’ as it were. If it’s not something that really grabs you, I’d stay away from it to be honest. Sparring can give you a real shock, and even that’s nothing like the real thing.
Just enjoy your Kung Fu, and accept that you have some limitations. It’s a very sad sight seeing boxing coaches with early onset Parkinson’s, and others with slurred speech and badly broken noses. Believe me that’s not a rare thing in the competitive fighting world. It’s a ruthless industry and once you are done no one is interested anymore.
I worked in nightclubs for over ten years and spent two of them doing the doors, there really is very little time and space for chinese martial arts once more than one person get involved. Your sweatshirt becomes a lassoo around your neck once someone grabs hold of it, and your more likely to be hit with a stiletto or a bottle or ashtray by someone you can’t see than using your wing chun or similar with someone straight in front of you.
There’s a lot of confusion in martial arts and it’s important to get things clear before you get led astray. You can do your Kung Fu sparring, enjoy it like a mediation, with a good group and things to develop and work on, but for heaven’s sake don’t think it’s going to be effective during an assault.
If you want the self defense side then you have to train the reality based stuff. Do your research on the body’s reaction to extreme stress and fear, and do the hard training with low light, uneven surfaces, weapons, multiple attackers, scenarios, and so on…
Then come back to your kung fu and see how your angle might have changed.
[QUOTE=bigopen;1228151]You can do your Kung Fu sparring, enjoy it like a mediation, with a good group and things to develop and work on, but for heaven’s sake don’t think it’s going to be effective during an assault.[/QUOTE]
I just don’t understand the logic “TCMA training can’t be applied during an assault”.
If the person who attacks you has 10 years TCMA training, do you think his attack will be more effective on you compare to those attackers who has no MA training?