[QUOTE=Oso;916707]Groundwork!!! We don’t need no steenkin groundwork![/QUOTE]
lol says the mma mod!
by the way oso - how did you become a mod? not that you aren’t deserving! just wondering what torture and tribunals gene put you through for him to deem you worthy to breathe in his direction??? 
my first teacher has a bjj program. he keeps the curriculum seperate. but he does do a class every now and then of bjj in the kung fu curriculum because its good for understanding leverage and stuff. but he keeps it seperate.
[QUOTE=xcakid;916713]Yes we do.
Long Fist includes shiua chiao and chin na. Now granted its not as specialized as BJJ, but its ground fighting nevertheless. Its pretty much staying true to the style.[/QUOTE]
Most Kung-Fu’s (if you will) have Seut and Lah. And it’s the specialization that I’m getting at. There are much more effective ways to get the Kam Lah techs on the ground these days, and in fact, curriculums designed to methodically learn it.
Does it get incorporated within LF schools, or is the groundfighting that the LF schools do considered “it”, and if you want to learn more about it, go study BJJ?
[QUOTE=Shaolinlueb;916716]my first teacher has a bjj program. he keeps the curriculum seperate. but he does do a class every now and then of bjj in the kung fu curriculum because its good for understanding leverage and stuff. but he keeps it seperate.[/QUOTE]
Out of curiosity, why separate?
When I trained in Wing Chun we would chi sau or spar often times all the way to the ground and then fight on the ground or our ways out of the ground. Granted my sifu did have some judo experience prior to his learning Wing Chun himself he would soetimes throw in an armn lock or two in the ground but these arm locks were also worked in on stand up or atleast a variation. Was this from pure kung-fu?? Who knows but it made things complete and showed us how to keep fighting from the ground which made for a solid self defense system.
Done and Done
[QUOTE=yutyeesam;916721]Out of curiosity, why separate?[/QUOTE]
some kung fu people don’t want to do bjj. most bjj people don’t want to do kung fu. so he keeps them separate. also he offers discount if they want to do both. it is also a business so.
i used to think, oh i will use my chin na on the ground.
doesn’t work like that. well you can adapt it, but have to be very good. your leverage and positioning goes to sh*t when you are flat on your back and in a half guard/guard/side mount.
i took a couple seminars (about 6 hours total) with my instructor and learned some basics. I respect BJJ for what it is and does, but I don’t like it. I have rolled with bjj guys to. Heck I know the owners of NAGA and MMA.TV
[QUOTE=mjw;916723]When I trained in Wing Chun we would chi sau or spar often times all the way to the ground and then fight on the ground or our ways out of the ground. Granted my sifu did have some judo experience prior to his learning Wing Chun himself he would soetimes throw in an armn lock or two in the ground but these arm locks were also worked in on stand up or atleast a variation. Was this from pure kung-fu?? Who knows but it made things complete and showed us how to keep fighting from the ground which made for a solid self defense system.
Done and Done[/QUOTE]
Cool. Yeah, I’m not even worried about the pure Kung-Fu aspect of it. Again, Kung-Fu means skill. And it looks like you guys trained to work from the ground, ie, a skill.
BTW, you’re the second person who said “When I trained in Wing Chun…”
Just thought that was interesting.
[QUOTE=Shaolinlueb;916724]some kung fu people don’t want to do bjj. most bjj people don’t want to do kung fu. so he keeps them separate. also he offers discount if they want to do both. it is also a business so.
i used to think, oh i will use my chin na on the ground.
doesn’t work like that. well you can adapt it, but have to be very good. your leverage and positioning goes to sh*t when you are flat on your back and in a half guard/guard/side mount.
i took a couple seminars (about 6 hours total) with my instructor and learned some basics. I respect BJJ for what it is and does, but I don’t like it. I have rolled with bjj guys to. Heck I know the owners of NAGA and MMA.TV[/QUOTE]
Makes sense, and I agree! Why don’t you like it?
[QUOTE=yutyeesam;916725]BTW, you’re the second person who said “When I trained in Wing Chun…”
Just thought that was interesting.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, I stopped because I graduated from college and moved back home, where there wasn’t/isn’t a WC school nearby.
[QUOTE=Reverend Tap;916706]My WC Sifu taught ground fighting alongside standup and takedown/sweep stuff. Don’t know what the origin of it was; he never said it was from anywhere else so at the time I just assumed it was part of WC, and he never really taught the names of the groundfighting techniques, so no clues there either.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like the teacher I used to train with.Things would seemingly appear out of thin air with no explanation.He taught us bjj,but it was called “groundfighting” to make it appear as if we were still doing cma.You like I assumed it was a part of what we were doing.I was wrong.
I learn CMA to learn a standup art focused on strikes and pounding people with . . . strikes.
If I wanted to learn grappling I would go take BJJ or Sambo.
If I want to learn MMA I would join a MMA gym.
If I want to learn boxing I would join a boxing gym.
I want to learn CLF so I joined a CLF gym.
Why are all CMA guys incorporating BJJ into their curriculum?
Are you training for an MMA competition?
If for self defense, basic sweeps/throws, and learning how to mount/sweep from the guard is good enough to get out.
Why drill the BJJ intensively if you’re never gonna use it. That’s what I’m confused about.
I don’t wanna find myself rolling around on the ground with some gorilla, and thinking “D@mn, I kinda wish I’d studied a little more grappling/groundfighting” right before I hear my own neck snap.
It’s fine to say, “I do my fighting standing up” right up until you find yourself on your ass. Then you just have to suck it up and deal, and better to have the tools available.
[QUOTE=yutyeesam;916714]lol says the mma mod!
by the way oso - how did you become a mod? not that you aren’t deserving! just wondering what torture and tribunals gene put you through for him to deem you worthy to breathe in his direction??? :D[/QUOTE]
you’ve heard of waterboarding, right?
now, think about it w/ nacho cheese sauce…
The reality is, if you are teaching kung fu as COMBATIVES, you need groundwork. Hitting the ground is a reality, falling down is a reality, getting thrown and landed on is a reality, and getting stomped while down is a reality. If you never practice those scenarios in a controlled environment, you can’t expect to pull it off for rizzle.
BJJ is not the only ground system in the world, but it’s probably the most sophisticated, and right now it’s pretty available, so it’s the logical choice to use as your base.
Once you establish a good base (Blue Belt level or so), you can modify the curriculum and fit it into your system. Just don’t try to pass it off as Shaolin Groundfighting.
If you are teaching an “art,” you can stick with the standard CMA curriculum and show traditional applications, but you should preface the discusssions with historically contextual information about why you are spending so much time learning how to kick someone who doesn’t want to follow you to the ground, etc.
I can’t imagine EVER training under someone again who hasn’t taken groundfighting seriously enough to address it, even if it’s just by having a separate program run by another instructor.
[QUOTE=yutyeesam;916655]Does your Kung-Fu school incorporate ground fighting? If so, how? Is it a separate (BJJ) class/program? Or is it integrated into the curriculum? Does the head teacher teach it, or is there a separate instructor who specializes in it teaching? If the latter, is the head teacher training in it?
If it is being integrated into the curriculum, does the teacher go straight into submissions (say after a takedown/throw), or does the teacher start from the ground basics and teach progressively how to roll?
I’m just curious to know how Kung-Fu schools are adapting to this. I’ve seen a Shaolin-Do school contract a BJJ school’s instructor to have a program in the school.[/QUOTE]
We practice ground fighting in our style that is traditional and has no connection to BJJ or MMA.
[QUOTE=Lokhopkuen;916789]We practice ground fighting in our style that is traditional and has no connection to BJJ or MMA.[/QUOTE]
What is an example guard pass you use?
What is an example of a half-guard pass you use?
How do you escape from a knee-on-belly mount?
We have not done ground fighting yet…but I would like to learn some.
Can anyone post any examples (either video, or other sources) of ground fighting that you use in school?
Thanks
In the world we live in today, to NOT take advantage of specialized systems of H2H combat is just silly.
Very few systems deal with ground work as well as BJJ, you just have to find a teacher that deals with the WHOLE aspect of ground work and not just the grappling aspect, including weapons and ground work.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;916790]What is an example guard pass you use?
What is an example of a half-guard pass you use?
How do you escape from a knee-on-belly mount?[/QUOTE]
Well we don’t subscribe to the terminology you are using nor or we sport oriented.
In a supine mounted position we use seizing and grappling techniques similar to stand up with emphasis on dominating the wrist, elbow, shoulder, neck and torso control points (controlling three knots), using the shoulders and hips as the root base. [SIZE=“1”]Forgive me if my words do not paint the clearest of pictures for you.[/SIZE]
As far as “knee on belly mount” I have yet to end up in that position but it sounds interesting.
Working against the shoot I’ve had great success redirecting the hands and arms (when the attacker uses his weight ballistically intending to hobble or uproot), setting root and using stance transition to root to turn the shoulder and neck using the impetus forces against would-be shooter. Traditional stance work training has paid off in spades as has mobility in stance-transition-stance during pre and post engagement.
In recent experience big thick guys have mostly tried the glory shot punch in the mouth, smaller thick guys almost always try for a shoot. I expect everything and nothing keeping ready for all things. This play usually jumps off when I am intervening in protection of a principle or secondary client or during egress whilst disengaging from a trouble source.
Since this ground fighting craze erupted I’ve become quite fond of following my target to the ground with specialized finishing technique seeking an emphasis on incapacitation, immobilization via treading, shooting arrow or purposeful falling with foot, knees and hips directed to tender and vital points followed by arresting (seizing) techniques. Most recent encounters have been multiple assailant and I hate getting my designer suits dirty or torn so I’m big on efficiency.
Also I don’t play fair. MK 8 pepper spray, green laser, super bright LED Flashlights with weighted handles, body armor with trauma plates and gloves with carbon fiber knuckles have given my team and I the edge. Keep in mind I’m working lots of EP details these days.
I got a chance to play friendly with some of the Machado Brothers years ago and I respect their BJJ. Truthfully I’d rather wrassle a full grown anaconda than one of them bros. Unfortunately my recent experiences with these types of fighters and others were not friendly matches but instead on the job. Most of these opponents displayed a divergence between what it was they wanted to happen as opposed to what was really going on.
If i attribute my work group’s success to any one component I’d say just it’s remaining in the moment mentally.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;916795]In the world we live in today, to NOT take advantage of specialized systems of H2H combat is just silly.
Very few systems deal with ground work as well as BJJ, you just have to find a teacher that deals with the WHOLE aspect of ground work and not just the grappling aspect, including weapons and ground work.[/QUOTE]
Well said.