There’s this thing called MMA.
It’s where you can go to fight with limited rules and limited safety equipment and with gloves that let you grab as well or even better than without gloves.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1116829]If you are a Taiji guy, it will be interest to try all your moves with 16 oz boxing gloves on. Here is 2 clips that throws are perform with gloves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXVXU4as828
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hblrR6vU6p4[/QUOTE]
Cool techniques. I’m not a Taiji guy I was just using Taiji as an example. My own practice is Songshan Shaolin which does contain a lot of Taiji apps though. I do understand there are ways to do the techniques with gloves on but I just think it’d be a better aid to training to use the MMA glove and MMA rules.
mma gloves is great, but i like watching bare hand vale tudo because it cuts the face and makes a lot of blood.
[QUOTE=bawang;1116845]mma gloves is great, but i like watching bare hand vale tudo because it cuts the face and makes a lot of blood.[/QUOTE]
Gotta love it.
[QUOTE=faxiapreta;1116841]There’s this thing called MMA.
It’s where you can go to fight with limited rules and limited safety equipment and with gloves that let you grab as well or even better than without gloves.[/QUOTE]
Many TMA dislike the MMA environment so for them to have one of their own is not a bad thing.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1116849]Many TMA dislike the MMA environment so for them to have one of their own is not a bad thing.[/QUOTE]
TMA people also havent tried to create authentic traditional lei tai. theres nothing wrong with the mma environment.
kung fu should learn valuable wisdom from vale tudo
[QUOTE=Crosshandz;1116838] this Luo Dexiu hip toss [/QUOTE]
The move “(Shou Bie) - hand block” should have no problem to perform with gloves if you can obtain that “leading arm control” contact point. With gloves on, the proper contact point is much harder to obtain.
Vale Tudo?
Where does that happen nowadays?
Certainly not in north america.
As for MMA, that’s mma, it’s not the same as tcma training.
there’s room for adoption from mma I agree, but tryin to fit tcma into that mold is a waste of effort time and energy.
they are two completely different focuses.
an apple is a fruit
an orange is a fruit
they are both tasty tasty fruit.
they are completely different despite the same idea that they are fruit.
The only similarity in mma and any other martial art is that it is martial.
Even here they take a lot of the danger out of MT for instance. No elbows. Know why? Too dangerous!
time limits, weight restrictions etc are all there to ensure less injury occurs. It is fairly safe over all.
there is a component of guys who seem to think that they being punched in the face automatically has given them some kind of martial wisdom. And it has! But there are a lot of deluded egotists out there who will eventually come to know the error of their ways. 
Til then, it’s only my problem when they break the Ts&Cs here.
[QUOTE=bawang;1116852]TMA people also havent tried to create authentic traditional lei tai. theres nothing wrong with the mma environment.
kung fu should learn valuable wisdom from vale tudo[/QUOTE]
Well. many TMA have the view of the MMA environment that they get from the TV or from MMA oriented sites that, well, suck.
Many TMA HERE for example get their view of the MMA environment from the likes of people here that advocate MMA over TMA.
Enough said eh?
[QUOTE=bawang;1116845]mma gloves is great, but i like watching bare hand vale tudo because it cuts the face and makes a lot of blood.[/QUOTE]
In most of the San Shou fight, the MMA gloves is still considered not safe enough. In a state such as Texas that all full contact fight has to be controlled by the boxing organization, the 16 oz boxing gloves are required.
[QUOTE=Crosshandz;1116781]Cheesy topic for a thread but it accurately describes my subject matter. Seriously speaking I was wondering what board members thought about the current rules of Kung fu competition fighting and whether or not they should be revised, for instance, along the lines of the unified rules of mixed martial arts?
Do board members think there is a disjunction between the way we train to fight in Chinese martial arts and the rules of competition? For example, in training many Chinese martial arts systems employ a range of techniques involving throws and projections but all the competition fighting I’ve seen uses kickboxing gloves. This immediately nullifies the ability of a Kung fu student to actually attempt to pull many of these techniques off in live combat.
By using the unified rules of MMA and ditching the big gloves for MMA gloves I think we would create a more beneficial environment in which to develop the fighting skills of Kung fu people. Just wanted to know what other people thought?[/QUOTE]
Good topic. Good question.
I think Kung FU could keep the gloves and adapt the rules. Lots of throws can be pulled off with boxing gloves. Or get amateur MMA gloves that are better padded and incorporate head gear, even closed head gear. Chest gear. Anything to get people playing more lively.
If you don’t want to focus too much on ground, allow perhaps a 10 count of action after someone goes down. More points for takedowns. More points yet for takedown with follow through control. Control the position.
This would be a good start. After three years of this then a full on MMA-like contest could be held. No head gear. Continuous fighting for X minute rounds.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1116803]
UFC can get real boring real fast when it’s just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.[/QUOTE]
We mock what we don’t understand.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1116803]
I would like to see san shou with the option to G&P on a take down or throw and if a guy can get it going, then break it and let em try again.[/QUOTE]
I prefer no time limit. When I work hard to get a guy down and I have great position I like to milk it, make the other person suffer, carry my weight… I fight in venues with 5 minute rounds. Broken up in three rounds. Sucks to end a round in great position… this is what we got.
There’s nothing more beautiful than an uninterrupted fight. There’s wonderful drama involved. There is so much subtle battling going on for position in the ground game. If you knew what to look for its just as rewarding as seeing a nice strike. In some ways a great strike requires an element of luck (guard down, run into, etc.) Setting up an escape/reversal is beautiful. It’s beautiful to finish.
Why try and reinvent the wheel?
Some 20 years ago I was trying to make standardized rules for Kung Fu competition. My Sifu told me it would never work. Too many old school CMA (I am talking about the generation of Sifu above me) have ego problems and will not conform to any changes to their style.
We have what is called “Continuous Sparring”, it’s not perfect and it needs some more guidance but it’s all we have now. You fight with what you got, no calling for points. 3-5 judges make a call at the end of the bout for winner.
What can we add on to this to make it better.
We fight on what ever floor is available (Carpet, Wood etc).
All techniques allowed except groin and bloodying the face (Draw blood and your out).
Broom sweeps are allowed.
What else?
ginosifu
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1116803]
UFC can get real boring real fast when it’s just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1116803]I would like to see san shou with the option to G&P on a take down or throw and if a guy can get it going, then break it and let em try again.[/QUOTE]
In the begenning, I didn’t like the 3 seconds rule. One of my students in Baltimore tournament did a beautiful “leg twist” throw. Since it was done between 3 - 5 second, her throw didn’t count. Later on I realize that the 3 seconds rule may be the only way that doesn’t turn a San Shou match into a wrestling match.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1116803]UFC can get real boring real fast when it’s just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.[/QUOTE]
It’s just like the 3 seconds rule in San Shou. If you can’t throw your opponent within 3 seconds, your throwing skill is not good enough. If you can’t put an arm bar on your opponent with in certain amout of time, your ground skill is not good enough.
In the real life we have to finish the fight ASAP before the cops come. We just don’t have all the time in the world. It’s better to train for “time efficiency” IMO. If you love a girl, you should marry her. A beautiful girl will not wait 10 years for you. That’s just the reality.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1116867]Why try and reinvent the wheel?
Use the rules these guys use and go to their tournaments.[/QUOTE]
Mostly because we are kung fu and a lot of their rule sets are not geared for kung fu fighting. This is why my school does not go to karate point sparring competitions because the rules are geared for them… we do not point spar. So we need to create rule sets that are emphasizing CMA.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1116865]We mock what we don’t understand.
[/QUOTE]
I’ve heard plenty of experienced ground fighters say the same thing. I’ve also heard plenty of judo teachers say the same thing about watching two experienced judoka go at it. Far more interesting to experience than to watch.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1116873]Mostly because we are kung fu and a lot of their rule sets are not geared for kung fu fighting. This is why my school does not go to karate point sparring competitions because the rules are geared for them… we do not point spar. So we need to create rule sets that are emphasizing CMA.[/QUOTE]
It’s not karate - it’s International Sport Jiu Jitsu and it’s pretty open. It’s basically everything that’s been described in this thread. Light weight gloves, limited padding, full contact, take downs and limited ground fighting.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1116876]It’s not karate - it’s International Sport Jiu Jitsu and it’s pretty open. It’s basically everything that’s been described in this thread. Light weight gloves, limited padding, full contact, take downs and limited ground fighting.[/QUOTE]
You’re right, but the tournaments are few and far between.
I’m actually kind of ****ed. There was an event at the Battle of Atlanta very recently and I missed it because I wasn’t paying attention to BoA’s news. sucks.