Can Kung Fu be saved?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

There were 10 US Kung Fu instructors responded.

All seemed to agree that an overseeing organization on a national level needed.

The org has to include all local or regional org’s.

There needs to be a standardization and certification process for an instructor.

There needs to be a system to recognise that one has to complete at least 3 years of training to be an instructor and not just a few minutes of instruction from video info.

There should be corporate sponsorship or government/public money to support the competition events and seminars for famous teachers.

There should be enough incentive for people to compete such as an award and traveling and accommadation money for the teachers.

What do you think?

:smiley:

2

I think easier said than done.

In my opinion, this would require many styles to be watered down so they could fit into the “standard style”.

How many school owners would actually agree to have some national organization come to their school for evaluation?

What would the standard style look like? Northern Shaolin? Wing chun? Praying Mantis? Choy Lay Fut? Tai Chi Chuan, Ba gua? Hung Ga? Countless others? Or would it have elements of each?

Would there be a Grand Master who decides what the standard style is? If so, everyone would have to agree “yes” this is the right guy for the job.

So like I said, easier said than done.

I don’t think there needs to be a standard style. What would it be based on? Forms? Combat?

This type of thing would generate too many unaswerable questions. IMO.

3

Isn’t “wushu” already the national art of china?

Seriously though…for kung fu to be saved, the first thing that has to happen is for the practitioners to actually be able to fight and use their art. Ninety percent of kung fu practitioners can’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag. And that’s the plain truth.

The first step is training to perform. If kung fu guys continue to train half ass and think they’re doing something great…then kung fu will soon die. We don’t need ranks, or evaluations, or dictators. We need skill. Period.

4

How to prove/demonstrate your fighting skill without incurring repeated, serious injury? That is the question.

Kyokushinkai, one of the World’s most popular/widespread styles of Karate (#2, IIRC, right behind my own Shotokan) involves “Knockdown” sparring. No points, no breaks, no pads. The only thing that matters is putting someone on their ass.
The theory being that, if you can knock someone down, you’ve placed them “in check” and have gained tactical superiority, enabling you to stomp them.

No groin shots, face/head strikes using the hands, avoid striking the joints. Everything else is open.

They manage to do this without frequent -major- injuries.

5

Greetings..

One of Kung Fu’s attractions is the various styles.. TCMA is a very broad subject including internal and external styles.. standardization would be counter-productive, IMO.. commonality is found in principles and effectiveness.. improvement is found in open and honest critique..

I was at a tournament this weekend (mixed systems including Chinese and Japanese), and made several observations…

Japanese students appeared to have much better discipline, control and overall performance..

Japanese instructors were critical, precise and demanding..

Chinese students were generally sloppy and relaxed by comparison..

Chinese instructors seemed more like “buddies” than instructors..

The overall conclusion was that Japanese students trained harder and had higher expectations… That Chinese students had a “feel good” mentality, with little expectation.. the Chinese students showed little understanding of the intended purpose of their movements, they showed little spirit..

I think TCMA instructors, generally, leave personal improvement up to the student.. they simply offer the instruction and the student gets it or they don’t, they have to set their own personal goals.. now, i’m guilty of this as well, i don’t do much in the way of strength training at class, my job as i see it, is to teach the “art”, class time is better suited for learning the fine points of the art.. strength and flexibility training is suited for the student’s personal goals.. Now, i am re-thinking that perspective.. no decisions, yet.. but, the observable results at the tournament begged consideration…

I understand that the Chinese Martial Arts were not well represented at this tournament.. but, it was sufficient to make me re-think certain issues..

Just some thoughts.. Be well..

6

A simple question requires a simple answer.

Answer= If, a person has any “REAL” skill, they can prove,demostrate, or show you such without hurting you. The problem is that many claim skill which ,they don’t really possess.

jeff:)

7

I saw that article and I think that’s one of the reasons Kung Fu is in such trouble. Everyone wants to standardize Kung Fu … standardize what? Form?

In that same issue there’s a choy ley fut guy claiming the styles proficiency against mutliple apponants … the photos are rediculous! My favorite is pic No. 5 on page 71.

If Kung Fu is to be saved it needs a huge dose of reality. But students aren’t knowledgable enough to realise they are buying a product that, for the most part, doesn’t work. For the most part, teachers don’t have real skill and so they sell everything else associated with Kung Fu … but the real martial skill.

I know they can talk up the health side, but there’s no way they are as fit – physically or mentally – as the guys who are rolling, full power 3 times a week.

Kung Fu is in a bad place and it’s our fault, for letting this crap go on. It’s the Kun Fu media’s fault. For putting total posers on their covers simply because they’re advertising some crap. I understand business is business, but a publication needs some integrity. If you’re going to have a martial arts magazine, specifically Kung FU related, shouldn’t the guy on the cover be able to handle himself?

One guy said a teacher should have at least 3 years of training … 3 years?:frowning: How about 15? And not form work! A fancy uniform and form does not a martial master make. Good solid technique, tried and true, that’s what we need but it’s the last thing everyone wants to talk about for some reason.

8

Sounds like yet another attempt to leash and milk the cash cow.

9

How? -Power- is a neccessary component of the technique-speed-power triad. In order to demonstrate Power, during sparring, I must hit you. Rather hard. Perhaps not 100% “no-I-won’t-give-you-my-wallet” power, but hard nonetheless.

This is where the -minor- injuries come in. Noses, fingers, the occasional fracture, lots of bruises and cuts/scratches. Comes with the territory.

-Major- injuries enter the equation when someone has been malicious, stupid, careless, arrogant, or some mixture of these.

I live in a no-CMA zone (NW Florida). I’ve only ever fought in the JKA-Shotokan manner, Jiyu Kumite (freefighting, no contact), and Kyokushin (Knockdown rules, no hand-to-head, avoid joints, otherwise full power). I don’t have any idea how you CMA guys spar. However, what skill I have never really matured until I began hanging with the Knockdown guys. Getting hit cures your fear of getting hit, and proving your power develops your confidence in that power.

*-nota bene to all: when sparring (as opposed to kicking someones ass), you leave your ego at the door. If you are getting beat, the problem is YOU. Figure out what you are doing wrong or where you are weak. DO NOT attempt to compare ****-size by trying to hurt your opponent. You are both there to learn. Be not a ****.

10

And yes, attempting to standardize CMA would be a complete failure from day-one. Hell, we can’t even standardize Karate, and that is much less diverse than Kung Fu.

Maybe have the Government pick a -specific- Style and promote it. Still not a good idea, IMHO, but certainly doable.

If we did such a thing, we’d be better off choosing Judo.

11

anyone who is not flexible and not willing to compromise for the greater benefit probably has sh!tty kungfu anyway. :stuck_out_tongue:

I completely agree with the keeping of all pais, but also with the overall quality being stringent in standards for the pais. This can be done with a major governing body and subsets of that.

If there is unity, Kungfu as a sport and an artform will get even stronger.
Too much black and white thinking in a lot of respects.

I agree that ineffective and wishy washy stuff should just die in a ditch and be put there by such a body. If it can’t hold up, let it wash.

12

Judging by the insight of the members of this forum, it would be a great idea to have persons that don’t understand each individual style critiquing and altering said style to conform to their ideas.

13

Greetings..

Kung Fu doesn’t need to be saved.. just purged.. but, as is the problem in general, by whose standards? We certainly don’t need more organizations or an “oversight committee”.. we need dedicated martial artists, dedicated enough to go over to the “Mac-Kwoon” and explain the fundamentals of Martial life.. I think a “Supreme National Kung Fu Organization” would be a fatal strike to the heart of the Art.. Kung Fu is Martial “Art”, not Martial “Sport”.. Sports have ruling organizations, Artists are not bound by the whims of others.. Almost every Organization i have been associated with in CMA existed in conflict with some other organization.. one National Organization will only breed another and another.. as has so often happened throughout history, the drive to unify actually only further divides..

Locally, there are organizations that boycott events by other organizations and exclude other organizations from their own events.. more organization, less unity.. The best “organization” for Kung Fu would be a national database for instructors and students to share. It would display wins, losses and medals won in competition per student and per school.. statistics tell the story.. As i have so many times related this short story, it is applicable here, too.. After a nasty street scuffle the loser sits on a curb with a hand-full of his own teeth yelling at the victor.. “yeah, well you don’t belong to our Organization so it doesn’t count, AND, your style sucks”…

Be well…

14

Pardon me for being rude, but the “article” was a joke…

Or perhaps it just shows WHY kung fu is dying up real quick here in the US…

A few points I observed in the piece in question

  1. One instructor suggests we make sure that all instructors are qualified, sounds good doesn’t it? Then he says make sure they have “3 years” or training… 3 years to teach a TCMA system?

  2. Pet peeve perhaps, but Nick Gracien is a contemporary Wushu stylist, why ask him about saving traditional Kung Fu? Let’s ask the TKD school down the block also

  3. I don’t want to get personal, but some of the instructors interviewed either don’t have many students or have VERY SMALL SCHOOLS. That is one problem with TCMA, we put “masters” in charge based upon their name, when they’ve yet to show any organization sense or sense of business, or sense of reality…

Let’s be brutally honest here, you can’t even run a school in your local area, yet you are in charge of a national organization? And we wonder why events are so badly organized?

  1. I’m all for sport and competition, OBVIOUSLY, but that is only PART of teaching an art and keeping it alive. For every fighter I have I have 10 everyday people, average joes and janes, who come in for helath, physical education and enjoyment. Until we teach so called “instructors” to take their “job” seriously and act like a professional, we’ll never see it grow

Related to 3 and 4, notice how guys like Tat Mau Wong, ie guys who have very successful commercial schools, were “left out”? Or was it they simply didn’t care to partake because they realized how silly the premise was?

15

Very true Sifu Ross.

Love that 3 year training remark. What fools…

Dale

16

Like i stated before…

If, someone has any “REAL” skill, they can beat you without doing serious injury to you. When we spar we do so with no pads,gloves, or protective gear on. We don’t limit the strikes to the body either.. face,head,groin are all target areas. I don’t claim to posses any skill i’m still a student, but even i can spar and get my techniques across without doing serious injury. Yes, there are times when someone gets their bell wrung, but like sifu says

“You must be able to suffer the pain!!!”

That’s the reality of CMA today, too many ppl trying to teach Chinese Martial Arts, and they don’t have any of the Martial!!! Then add to that all the ppl that really don’t train, but think they are martial gods..:rolleyes:

There is so much wrong with CMA that i don’t think it can ever really be saved. It’s going to take some real ppl that really want to make a difference and have the backing behind them to even begin to make a ruffle in the CMA ocean, much lest a wave.

Where in NW Florida?

I’m from Miami and know of plenty teachers throughout florida, there’s not too many areas in florida where there’s not someone teaching CMA. There might not be large schools everywhere, but there are ppl teaching privately.

jeff:)

17

Greetings..

I have to agree with Sifu Ross.. (how can this be? :smiley: ).. but, at 3 years, a student has just learned how to be a student, possibly an assistant to the assistant junior instructor.. at three years the average student has just developed an eye for detail, a sense that connects what they see with what they do.. it might be just me, but, at about three years i was able to watch my instructor demonstrate the first thing i learned to a beginner and i could “feel” the differences in my own form.. that was a good transition for me..

There may be great instructors of CMA but few are business-wise.. a good Master should also be able to manage and prosper their school (or have the wisdom to hire someone that can)..

Be well..

18

[SIZE=“4”]the sound of evil laughter can be heard across the entire internet :smiley: [/SIZE]

19

Open

Ingenuity in marketing, innovation in teaching methods, and above all dont hide the good stuff it only kills your art.

Its not that kung fu is obsolete it is that people that teach are afraid to change with the times.

For example, you as a teacher know **** well that there is a relatively simple technique that is taught later in the system but makes lots of other moves look ridiculous from an application stand point, teach the da rn thing why be part of the problem. Why have students that cant apply?

Teach your students to have the goal of being better than the teacher and then you make them better than you and make them understand that every generation needs to get better or else you get the opposite of evolution (the fall of rome fu).

Also we can use our minds in the technological world to pep this thing up. look guys we are freaking global millions of people can be reached now lets pull together and do something that helps us all as a group instead of arguing over who’s kung fu is the best like an old Shaw brothers movie.

20

The real answer to this question: You train yourself to a level where you don’t go to fight the guy. You go beat his a$$ and let him worry about the pain and injury.

I know this sounds crazy, but in there lies the problem. Why do so many Kung FU players cringe at the idea of real combat, someone trying to beat you with their fist, elbows, knees … with everything? That’s the point!

Get familiar with that, learn your way around that violence, and then you don’t worry about “How hard,” “What’s legal.” You just go beat the guy. Then your training is in the right direction.

Good Kung Fu should take care of itself.