azwingchun, very good post, and the points you made are a large part of why I am a mixed martial artist now. I think the reason that MMA type technicques and strategies tend to work more often(and I know im making several sweeping assumptions with that statement, but hear me out) is that the muay thai-boxing -grappling combo seems to work off of the same motions the body does naturally. Motions that use the same nueral pathways as running, throwing, clinching, and climbing. There are some technicques where this isnt as true, and there is a refinement in the motions,but in general i think it a useful model.When hurt, tired, or scared the body will go to basic, hard wired motions.
I saw a film clip of a monkey that , when drinking, got bit on the head by a crocodile. The monkey (who i dont think was a trained martial artist) did a rotation to the side(away from the
crocs strength), pushed out, and ran away. The exact same escape one can use to avoid an armbar or triangle out of the gaurd.
In a clinch against a stronger fighter trying to take me down, I use the same general body mechanics that i use to move furniture.
My advice would to look at your style for the “natural” motions and principles there, and focus on those. Wing Chun has several that that Ive seen. These are the moves that will be there for you come hell or high water.
BTW, by natural, I dont mean from a theoretical point fo view. Watch sports, and physical labor , and you should see many of the same gross motions you see in your fighting system. One can over anlayize and theorize here, so look beyond martial arts for a better general picture of how the body moves.
“You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting”
Spinning Backfist
I think this thread is rather pointles. Who gives a sh!t what techniques you use in a fight??!??! If I’ve got a guy attacking me trying to kick my head in, the last thing on my mind is “hey, I should be in a horse stance right now” I’m too busy kicking his head in so that mine doesn’t get kicked in. If a muay thai round house drops him - cool. If a crane’s beak drops him - cool. Does it really matter? I think not.
As for the comments about “reverting to kickboxing” You need to do some serious study in the style. It seems like most people here view any type of bouncing around and throwing kicks as kickboxing. How can you revert to something you have never trained in? If I train muay thai, and throw a snapping roundhouse instead of the normal muay thai roundhouse, does that mean I reverted to kung fu?
I did see something of interest here:
“I once had a teacher who said that when in a fight that 80% of what you learn goes out the window. This again bugged me. Here I am spending money, time and hard work into learning this system and he’s telling me that most of it “will be thrown out the window when in a fight”. WOW …this blew my mind, here is a teacher who doesn’t really believe in what he is teaching, IMHO. I truely do not believe this. I believe that with hard work and dedication this shouldn’t happen. I know (not only from being told but also from experience) obviously it isn’t going to be the text book stuff we see in class, though it should be that of what you train when in a fighting situation.”
Your sifu was right, to an extent. When you take a hard shot to the jaw, things start to spin, you get dizzy, and yes you forgret you training. You then do what’s natural to you:
stand there and get beat
run
fight, with the most natural techniques you can think of at the time. In most cases that I have witnessed, this is punching.
with proper training, you can overcome this tendency to forget your training.
“You ain’t got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I’ll choke a ***** out wit his own gi” - Rass Kass
Thanks for the compliment on the post. I agree that, to put it basically, that the techniques used should be that of “natural” body movement and reaction. I would have to use Wing Chun’s Bui Gee for example. In Bui Gee we see things that are not really seen in the previous forms and gives a not such a tight and constrained look into its self-defense. Though some may disagree with me on that, though it is my opinion. When I say that I believe we should use whatever style it is we study in self-defense, I truely mean this. Though I think we as martial artist tend to fall into the rut of thinking that because the training is so formal and the forms and techniques have to look perfect in the kwoons mirror that this is what it should/will look like in real combat. This couldn’t be any further from the truth. Does this make sense, I think we are on the same idea..correct? I don’t really think people get to come to this realization until they enter NHB competitions or actually have a few all out brawls in the street. And 1 of 2 things seem to happen when this realization happens. 1) They just realize hey this does work, but it doesn’t look the same as it does a controlled environment (such as class) or 2) They try the pretty stuff and possibly lose and then lose faith in thier style. When in fact it was them who failed the style and not the style failing them.
DragonzRage - I know of G&P far to well. My first two weeks of training (at my current Dojo) all we did was G&P. I was really comfortable doing it because of my kickboxing background (I wish I would have had some wrestling to ;))
I was just trying to make a piont that it is more comfortable (and easier IMO) to sit there and G&P instead of trying to get a lock or a choke. And I can assure you that if I’m in a street fight I’m looking to G&P over a submission.
i’ll do my best to answer the orignal questions.. why not use what u train to use? i’ll have to be the bold one and say that not enough people are training properly. but in order to train properly, u have to understand what you are training for and learn that training for an NHB competition is different that training for a muay Thai competition, which is different than training for a san shou competition, which is ALL different that training for a street brawl. first things first.no competition is better or worse than another. they are all different and have different focuses. i learned this the hard way when i usually train for a street fight (which doesnt go for three 2-minute rounds with a 60 sec break in btwn) and decided to try my luck at a local kickboxing competition. did i get my head handed to my by this thai boxer? no, but i certainly quickly relized i was playing on his playground. it’s sure not possible to use any traditional animal fist techniques. (so i couldn’t just rush in during the round kick and rip his throat out.) and i was stupid enough to try to follow the rules (instead of thrust kicking through that standing knee during that same round kick.) also, in NHB, the rules are obviously tailored for those of certain disciplines. i’m STILL lookin for anyone who can show me ONE rule in a competition that isn’t there for safety reasons. e.g. a few NHB rules in a recent King of the Ring tournament read :" no small joint manipulations", “no eye gouging”, “no fish hooking”,“no strikes to the spine” and on and on. in cut-finger gloves, it’s not as hard to pull these techniques as it is in 16oz gloves. and in a street fight, wouldnt a natural reaction be to rip someone’s eye out if they were trying to kill you? i personally know of many traditional martial artist who seemed to have no problem maiming someone on the street. i dont know about anyone else, but the techniques i learn arent about being pretty and nice. it’s about surprise and devastation that shouldn’t last but for a few seconds, forget all the other B.S.! and who dictates who wins a competition? if i jump in a muay Thai competition and try to break both of the guys legs, does that mean that my techniques don’t work? nope, i’m satisfied, and i go home. if i’m in NHB and a guy tries for a rear-choke and my hand happens to be near his groin, should i feel i lost if i pull and squeeze? not really, he let go didnt he? i’m satisfied, and i go home. THE POINT I’M TRYING TO MAKE IS… if you’re gonna use your traditional techniques for a competition, not all of them will apply. chose only the most effective ones that will apply and be within the rules and with the appropriate gear train for that specific competition. why do people revert to kickboxing? inappropriate training. my advice? train for the street. if you have to put the gloves on for competition, do u care about winning or do you care about an award? hell, as long as i win, i’m satisfied, and i go home. good luck!
In a fight you should never stick to principles; they should stick to you!
