I got a discussion for guys.
One of the reasons why I took traditional kungfu is because it looked “pretty”. Deep horse and other stances, big circles for silk-reeling chi, chi projection, theory, history, family-feel (at least at my school) and weapons. I understand that in a real fighting situation the stances are higher, the circles not so big, and basically you are pretty discreet at showing what and how much you know.
But what about competition? In NHB and other ‘reality-based’ fighting, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, fights like they are a kickboxing(american)/muay thai/san shou fighter though they claim to know wushu, kungfu, tai chi, whatever. Bouncing around, weaving, turning their head away from the opponent when they attack, etc. Then the crowd goes OOOHHH! when an actual traditional technique is used. But even these are simple ones like ridge-hands. Personally, I know for a fact that some of my seniors would kick an attacker’s behind with semi-traditional stances, attacks and blocks (if they don’t just go for a submission lock).
When I did WC, I’d definitely use WC stances in a fight. When I get proficient with my kungfu and if I face multiple attackers or even just one, I’m going to kick their behind from a semi-traditional stance and have fun doing it. I’d hit them with a leopard paw, crane beak, (Po Pi)double palm strike, snake jab, etc.
CHEUNG…do u study under WILLIAM CHEUNG system…well if have the time there are some MMA events in the east coast…I encourage to go to some of the training skools and see if u can apply your wing chun techs on them.
It all looks cool in your head, but it’s a different story to get in front of another highly trained athlete and do it. My advice: stop talking and actually step up. There are plenty of oppurtunities in NYC. You’d have a much more convincing argument when you can provide proof.
I mean come on… If you know tiger, beat the crap out of them with tiger. Aikido? Throw them all over the place. Snake? Pressure point strikes. Don’t start kickboxing and then wind up on the ground in a ‘I can bash your head before you can mine’ match.
I do spar and when I do I use my actual techniques and don’t start kickboxing. I sparred against karate, wrestling, hung gar, boxing, streetfighting, and others. The point is I use the techniques that I learned and held my own against all of them without reverting to kickboxing. It’s not a matter of winning or losing, it’s about using the techniques you trained so hard to use.
Anyone who took offense to this post that was meant to get people’s opinions is an idiot and missed the point entirely.
Your mind will play tricks on you and make you believe you can do this or that in a fight. But when you are actually there you will do whatever you have to do to keep from getting the sheeiiot beat out of you.
Since you are in NY you will probably get a chance to try your stuff sooner or later on the street. Better sooner than later, because then you will know what really works best for you.
it sounds like you haven’t - in a proper fight you do whatever you can to survive. You don’t pressure point strike, you don’t do anything but raw, blunt movement. If it’s properly ingrained then you’ll use what you trained for - to a point.
Adrenalin does strange things to your abilities - people kickbox because punches and kicks are the easiest movements to make when you’re in the grip of adrenalin. Most people have confidence in those movements. All I use in a fight are my fists, elbows, knees and head.
Until you’ve been in a fight you really cannot say what you would or wouldn’t do…
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
We as MAs train our techniques to be natural to us. What that means it when a situation arise where a technique is required, it will be performed properly without the need to think or prepare for it.
In my case, it someone ‘real’ or ‘not’, threw a typical round punch, I’d through a bil sao ( a outstretched arm that intercepts the punch at the elbow on the same side of the attack) without thought, instead of a boxer’s block. It’s an actual technique that isn’t from boxing/kickboxing. It would come out because it’s natural for me, which is because I trained it hard.
I’m just asking how come others can’t do/say the same thing. Of course you have to change and adapt in a life or death situation. But this thread is not about those, it’s about competition including NHBs.
This preludes a question on why people train techniques that they won’t use in battle. Which is a major argument against traditional and (old) systems (systems I particularly favor). I’m not saying that any system is better. I just want to know why are the techniques trained so hard in class and alone, not used in a given (for this thread—competition) situation.
For those of you who don’t know me (which is everyone), you don’t know how I train so keep your stupid ‘prove it’ comments to yourself. I train so that I do use my techniques, do you?
On a different note… I don’t know why people think NYC is bad. Sure the people can be incredibly rude and obnoxious. And they are numerous crimes but a little common sense can keep you far from danger. I’ve live here all my life and sometimes in particularly rough, crime-ridden neighborhoods, but generally avoid conflicts without having to “go different routes”. NYC is particularly a nice place to live especially now that we are all sticking together after the disaster.
Back to point. I’m not interested in challenges or tell where I am or where/how I train. I have nothing to prove. And that’s something real martial arts taught me.
If you can’t simply state your opinion about the topic and not about me, DON’T POST A REPLY.
“Don’t fight it! Beat the crap out of him! Make him forget he even issued the challenge!”
Your posts are full of statements like “I would do this and I would do that” What I’m saying is get into a legit event that everybody here can verify (plenty in the NYC area) and then come back and say “I DID this and I DID that” Theory is all nice and good for talks over tea. Actions actually prove those theories though.
However, I said that I train to use my techniques naturally. Maybe I will participate in a tournament. I always wanted to. BTW, I train with or without gear at least on the same level at many average non-point/full-contact fighting bouts and I DO USE MY TECHNIQUES LEARNED IN CLASS.
If that isn’t enough to say that I practice what I preach at least on the competition level then I don’t know what to tell you.
Well this is my problem with your post…and I have trained in WILLIAM CHEUNG system under SIFU JULIAN SAWYER in BALTIMORE. So u must be under KEITH MAZZA in NYC eh??? Your basically saying ok…I can do this and that in NHB competition “naturally”…I will go on this argument and say…I have NOT seen anyone other than one WING CHUN student in EXTREME BATTLECADE 2 stick to the traditional system…in other words…hey I believe u can do wing chun or traditional styles in NHB when I see you COMPETE. Please notify us of what event u plan on competing and send us a footage of you on it!
Also…in regards to why we don’t see traditional guy using techs. is that there are not many traditional guys fighting in NHB. The TOP event is the UFC and Pride( japan ). They are very selective based on past NHB/MMA lower events. Lower events are like King of the CAGE and SUPERBRAWL…who select fighters with reps from amauter events. I have heard very few CMA guys trying amauter events. I have seen some of my school mates competer however in SAN SHOU tourneys…and this is not an excuse but it’s hard to KO someone with 16 oz gloves with chain punching and the opponent is countering with HOOKs.
Again since this thread isn’t about me but my question, I don’t care if you believe me or not. If you want existing proof at least about the TWC of W. Cheung, check out his student in Jacksonville, FL., Sifu Anthony Arnett. He’s won a bunch of tourneys.
I actually studied under Sifu Sonny Whitmore of NYC (Flushing, Queens) about 4 years ago. But there are Sifus Victor Parlati, and Felix Rosado who also teach here in the city. Personally, I’ve never met Rosado or Mazza.
I have heard of SIFU ANTHONY ARNETT in FLORIDA and from my knowledge he has won many POINT FIGHTING tournaments. I have never heard him competing in SAN SHOU tourneys or NHB/MMA events or even any desire to do so. I myself have competed once in a SAN SHOU tourney and did ok in my first match and poorly in my second match.
Grapplers train technique (i.e. locks and chokes) and you see alot of them do ground and pound when the hit the ground instead of trying to pull off a technique. I guess it’s all what a fighter is more comfortable doing. That’s why you see lots of kung fu trained people go to kickboxing style, is because it’s more comfortable for them.
ground & pound is as much of a technique as a submission is. It is a tactic trained very intensely by many MMA style fighters. Pulling off a good G & P against a skilled opponent actually requires a good degree of skill. Yeah, it looks ugly but it is actually technical. When an MMA fighter uses it, it is very much in accordance with his training. On the other hand, when you see someone who for example might be trained in TKD fail to do damage with his kick combos and so reverts to throwing his arms around haphazardly like someone in the Toughman Contest, and then get slammed and choked out…now THAT is a failure of training
I have to say that all of you bring up some very good points about fighting. Though I have to side with Cheungstyle slightly more. The reason I say this is if you begin training in a style of any kind for the hope of bettering your self-defense skills I would hope that you choose a style which is applicable to real life situations and not because it is pretty, because they have cool weapons or even because it is close to your house and is the cheapest. I spent many years training in various styles until I came across the style which works the best for me (Wing Chun), not to take away from other systems though. I believe different systems all have something to offer.
I remember sometime ago in the previous UFC fights guys going into the octagon and claiming these various styles and not using a thing that thier system teaches, example: The Wing Chun fighter whos first technique was to run in right away and shoot for the legs (if memory serves). I was actually very upset at this. Here was a guy claiming to be one of the best Wing Chun fighters (again if memory serves, this was the statement made by the commentator) and his Wing Chun went right out the window immediately. And by the way lost soon there after. My feelings were that this person took away from what Wing Chun is or supposed to be. And anybody watching who didn’t have any martial arts experience would say “wow, that style sucks”. But not to get off track, since this isn’t about what non-martial artist think, but actually about using ones chosen system/style.
I once had a teacher who said that when in a fight that 80% of what you learn goes out the window. This again bugged me. Here I am spending money, time and hard work into learning this system and he’s telling me that most of it “will be thrown out the window when in a fight”. WOW …this blew my mind, here is a teacher who doesn’t really believe in what he is teaching, IMHO. I truely do not believe this. I believe that with hard work and dedication this shouldn’t happen. I know (not only from being told but also from experience) obviously it isn’t going to be the text book stuff we see in class, though it should be that of what you train when in a fighting situation.
The reason this seems to bug me so much is because when you watch the Gracies fight do you think that 80% of what they train goes out the window? I don’t think so personally. And the next question is, do you think what you train so hard for is not so useful in these days of self-defense. If so why do you stay with that system/style if you are looking for self-defense?
I honestly respect all martial arts practitioners and styles alike, I have the utmost respect for all and think we can learn from each other. I think that the important factor of learning from each other is not to take away from the system you have chosen but to make it work with the principles of the chosen system. Let’s get real- there are only so many ways to block, punch and kick. It is the underlined principles and reasoning that makes them so different.
