A Discussion of Fighting Techniques

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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Do any of you question why do so many martial artists of any style or system - Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Brazilian etc resort to the SAME basic punch / kick or kickbox combinations when they fight - no matter their style ?

For so many years I have seen people train in various systems, learn countless forms & techniques - drill them over and over again in classes - and perform them flawlessly in controlled fighting drills and sparring -

BUT when it comes down to a real fighting match against a stranger - whether it be in or out of the ring - that 99% of people resort back to basic kickboxing ???

Why do their “techniques” and their “styles” go out the window and their fighting is not distinguishable from kick boxing ?

Notice in many videos of fights - be it UFC , YouTube, etc - most resort to non-technique based fighting ?

Most things in our lives improve and become updated as time passes - whether it be medicine, science, technology, etc - why do most people not look to update and improve their martial skill and bring it into the 21st century ?

Most people would laugh at someone using an old PC, driving an old car or wearing outdated clothes - but martial artists want to “keep the art pure” and teach techniques “the way they were taught” - but again WHY do a great deal of martial artists not update their fighting ? Why do they use the techniques they have learned the same way that is from “centuries ago”?

Look at western boxers from the 1900’s and you will see a stand up and fixed style of fighting - versus a boxer of today that is more crouched and mobile.

I have taken the basics of my martial skills and adapted and enhanced them to not only work in today’s world but simultaneously to be as simple as possible.

One example - most of us are able to walk all day long - SIMPLY WALK - why not adapt your fighting step patterns to coincide and be as simple as walking ?Why don’t you integrate your style’s methodology and incorporate into the simplest and most efficient means of movement for the human physiological structure ?

When you walk naturally you have your best balance, you are your most fluid, you have your best agility and the most speed of movement - YET - when most people fight they retreat into their “stances” or their “footwork pattern” and are not mobile at all - WHY ?

Do you notice that when you fight - are you leaning back or forward ? Where is your weight distribution - on your front or rear foot when you strike ?

Does your movement follow through in your strike or do you stop it as you hit your opponent ?

Where do you intercept your opponent - do you realize the range and are you moving in to intercept or waiting for their strike to come to you ?

Do you pre-plan or anticipate your movements or do you react based upon your opponent ? If you react - do you do so early or wait until the last minute ?

Do you cut angles not only in strike deflections and re-directions but in your footwork and body movement as well ? And if so then how far are you cutting the angles from your opponent ? Are you stepping out and then in again or are you truly cutting an angle as close as possible ?

These are only some of the things I myself have questioned over the years. I would like to hear others thoughts in regards to these statements I have made and the questions I have asked.

I am hoping this topic will lead to a serious and in depth discussion of martial arts - not one that talks only about lineage and how important it is to drop names and promote themselves as this website seems to be about as of late

Sincerely,

Mark Manganiello

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0.8 simply for length

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[QUOTE=Ben Gash;786470]0.8 simply for length[/QUOTE]

so, basicly, you are saying FRAT?

I thought this forum was a little better than that?

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[QUOTE=Mjmlnsl;786450]Why do their “techniques” and their “styles” go out the window and their fighting is not distinguishable from kick boxing ?[/QUOTE]
because at the top of the mountain - real combat - all points meet and become the same thing - or something wequally as profound;

[QUOTE=Mjmlnsl;786450]Most things in our lives improve and become updated as time passes - whether it be medicine, science, technology, etc - why do most people not look to update and improve their martial skill and bring it into the 21st century ?
Most people would laugh at someone using an old PC, driving an old car or wearing outdated clothes - but martial artists want to “keep the art pure” and teach techniques “the way they were taught” - but again WHY do a great deal of martial artists not update their fighting ? Why do they use the techniques they have learned the same way that is from “centuries ago”?[/QUOTE]
it’s the unassailable argument - when you cite the prowress of some dead Chinese guy 250 years ago + as the source, what can anyone say?

[QUOTE=Mjmlnsl;786450]Look at western boxers from the 1900’s and you will see a stand up and fixed style of fighting - versus a boxer of today that is more crouched and mobile.[/QUOTE]
adapt, adopt, improve…

[QUOTE=Mjmlnsl;786450]One example - most of us are able to walk all day long - SIMPLY WALK - why not adapt your fighting step patterns to coincide and be as simple as walking ?Why don’t you integrate your style’s methodology and incorporate into the simplest and most efficient means of movement for the human physiological structure ?
When you walk naturally you have your best balance, you are your most fluid, you have your best agility and the most speed of movement - YET - when most people fight they retreat into their “stances” or their “footwork pattern” and are not mobile at all - WHY ?[/QUOTE]
in classical Taoist practice, you lie like a bow, sit like a bell, stand like a tree and walk like the wind; the point is that the practice revolves around the regular positions in which we find ourselves in life; so the idea of life as practice is neither new nor implausable, at least from the perspective of self-cultivation; to extrapolate into fighting, it makes sense that one trains in a context specific manner - if you are concerned you may be attacked walking down the street, that’s a scenario to work with under live, pressured conditions

very nice ideas overall; but put on your oven mits, because you’re gonna get flammed for talking like a crazy-man, asking rationale questions and using sound reasoning to think through things like that…

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[QUOTE=cjurakpt;786493]

you’re gonna get flammed

[/QUOTE]

angry villagers are marching toward the castle with torches as we speak…

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Two answers for your questions:

  1. Specific.

Tournaments are not free fights and they have certain regulations that make certain movements prohibited and certain movements have competitive advantage in the particular tournaments. Those, regardless of the “style”, who do not use those advantageous movements will lose the competitive advantage in the particular tournaments. Hence, we observe “generic” movements."

  1. General.

Human body only has one head, one body(trunk), and 4 limbs. How many combinatoric ways can we move? I believe that high level martial artists move similarly (as a combination of, with the preference to, striking/kicking/grappling). The major differences are in the quality of the delivery, which boil down to power, speed, and accuracy.

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[QUOTE=wu-ji;786523]

Human body only has one head, one body(trunk), and 4 limbs. How many combinatoric ways can we move?[/QUOTE]

do buck sing, or even clf and you’ll see not everything comes down to a straight line, ur combinations are limitless

[QUOTE=wu-ji;786523]
I believe that high level martial artists move similarly (as a combination of, with the preference to, striking/kicking/grappling). The major differences are in the quality of the delivery, which boil down to power, speed, and accuracy.[/QUOTE]

NO ONE moves like THE GENERAL!

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;786487]so, basicly, you are saying FRAT?

I thought this forum was a little better than that?[/QUOTE]

I don’t actually understand what you’re saying. What I’m basically saying is he’s trolling.

9

Funny thing…a friend of mine commented on how, when two equally matched fighters meet in the ring ( as equal as equal can be obviously) that they can look just as “bad” as the typical street fights on youtube and that only when there is a noticable difference in skill level, do we see a “martial arts fight” and not a brawl.
I disagreed but I understood where he is coming from.

One can say that we “fight as we train” and this is true, but its also a fact that, if we DON’T train for a “real” fight than all the train can and often does, degenerate into a brawl and all brawl look “the same”.

People looking to see refined MA moves and such in a “brawl” will not see them, though the principles may be there, unless the skill level is of a quite noticable difference.

10

people don’t box or kickbox the same way at all.

to the uninformed eye then yeah, it all looks the same, but what that eye isn’t seeing is that:

guy a) keeps his hands on the sides of his head and his shoulders up and his head “tucked”

guy b) plays fast and loose, frequently lets the hands down, doesn’t shrimp and tends to kick more.

guy c) has a good blend of cover and entering but his kicks are not powerful

guy d) has wicked push kicks, stomps and keeps his guard up, but perhaps is a bit slow with the use of his waist in generating his punches.

and so on and so on and so on.

even in say just boxing, there are very large stylistic differences in how the fight is carried out between the two opponents.

when it is a san shou match, or mma fight or whatever, the person with even a little eye will see stylistic differences.

I basically think the whole posture of the so called kickboxing trap is a fallacy generated by people who seem to think that chinese martial arts should always look like something out of a fantasy movie. well, when americans start fighting like the batman then they can have their point, but otherwise it’s hogwash.

hogwash is a cool word isn’t it? :stuck_out_tongue:

11

you will do whatever it is you train. For example, if all you were taught was swinging,arcing punches,such as gwa,sow,cup,been, jong,pow,etc, under stress, you certainly would not resort to jab,cross, etc. Why? Because your body only knows the former, and has never done the latter.
The reason people revert back to “kickboxing” techniques is because when they were first taught the basics, that is what they were taught. Anything else came later, therefore most time was spent doing that.
Why were they taught that? Perhaps it is easier for the beginner to grasp, and therefore feel confident,leading to enrolling-meanining that this is due to the fact that the teacher is concerned about numbers.
The other reason might be because the teacher actually never knew or perhaps knew but didn’t teach the other methods.
Another reason-you came from a different school, where you learned “Kickboxing” type fighting. Then you sign up with a teacher who teaches you whatever. What will you revert back to?
as far as the line-“we only have two arms and two legs, and until someone is born with -whatever…” yes and no. Babies and children when they punch do cup choy first. Swinging the arms, or a stick is the same motion. When you were a child, and lost your temper, you went berserk,swinging your arms like gwa,cup.
and you were unstoppable. It’s only after you saw how they fight on TV, and tried to fight like John Wayne, that you started getting your arse kicked. You shooulda stayed with what you knew and developed that.:smiley:

12

[QUOTE=Mjmlnsl;786450]Do any of you question why do so many martial artists of any style or system - Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Brazilian etc resort to the SAME basic punch / kick or kickbox combinations when they fight - no matter their style ?
[/QUOTE]

The basic punch and kick are the most effective stuff. Hopefully each style will use these basic movements in relation to the style they take. The problem is the kata and the fight aren’t the same. Kata are wonderful I am not dogging them.. its just you can’t learn to fight from a kata. Just like you can’t learn to fight from Chi sao or playing chess, checkers, or bowling.

13

[QUOTE=Mjmlnsl;786450]Do any of you question why do so many martial artists of any style or system - Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Brazilian etc resort to the SAME basic punch / kick or kickbox combinations when they fight - no matter their style ?

For so many years I have seen people train in various systems, learn countless forms & techniques - drill them over and over again in classes - and perform them flawlessly in controlled fighting drills and sparring -

BUT when it comes down to a real fighting match against a stranger - whether it be in or out of the ring - that 99% of people resort back to basic kickboxing ???[/quote]

you cannot resort to something you have never trained in. Thus, they do not revert to kickboxing, they resort to what is ingrained into them - basics. And the basics of many styles are very similar.

Why do their “techniques” and their “styles” go out the window and their fighting is not distinguishable from kick boxing ?

under high stress and adrenaline situations, you forget everything that is not ingrained into your “muscle memory”

One example - most of us are able to walk all day long - SIMPLY WALK - why not adapt your fighting step patterns to coincide and be as simple as walking ?Why don’t you integrate your style’s methodology and incorporate into the simplest and most efficient means of movement for the human physiological structure ?
When you walk naturally you have your best balance, you are your most fluid, you have your best agility and the most speed of movement - YET - when most people fight they retreat into their “stances” or their “footwork pattern” and are not mobile at all - WHY ?

depends on the style you train. you will NEVER see a boxer or thai boxer use normal walking footwork is not efficient for them.

14

If you ask me …

Methinks the highest Kung Fu in a nutshell is sophisticated frailing au naturel. :eek: :smiley:

or be still! Stop the bullets matrix style. [Since I can’t do the “yet”, I have to resort to frailing] :wink:

Mantis108

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0.8 simply for length

Detract points for recycling.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47491

16

MMA trolls are so boring.

17

Everyone should have a move like this…

How can I put this vicious move into my repertoire? What amazing balance!!! Who is this masked man?

18

http://discuss.lingnamsiulum.com/board/

THIS IS AN EXCELLENT RESPONSE TO THIS POST FROM ANOTHER FORUM.
http://discuss.lingnamsiulum.com/board/index.php?topic=239.new#new

FNG
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Posts: 37

Sit Boy…

deadlyFNG
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Re: Check out Post
« Reply #3 on: Today at 10:24:19 AM »
In response to your post…

If you are talking about street fighting, or fighting for your life, technique should not matter. Winning matters. I never heard anybody say “wow if it wasn’t for his help we would have gotten our asses kicked. But did you see his technique was a bit sloppy?” I do understand your point though.

Maybe the reason for sub-par fight performance in some martial “art” students is perception. What students do compared to what they think they can do is incongruent. Many martial art students are sold on the romantic “artsy” aspect of the arts, and teachers/owners know this. A student needs to realize If you dedicate 80% of your effort on forms training, 15% on physical fitness, and 5% on technique training you are not fight training. You are “art” training. Martial art students still train hard, and are in fact training martial arts but they are not training to fight.

There is a difference between “martial art” and “martial sport”. If you visit a boxing gym you’ll see people punching, punching, punching, and punching. If you visit a Judo Dojo, or a Mui Tai gym, or olympic TKD what do you think they’re doing? Punching, kicking, throwing, repeating RELEVANT TECHNIQUES ON A PARTNER. These are “martial sports”. A martial athlete spends 90% of his/her effort on hard physical training, and 10% on everything else. They are less concerned with esoteric “artsy” stuff, and more focused on peak performance, and techniques that work. These martial athletes prepare for contact.

Then there are “combat” styles which differ again from “art & sport” styles. Combat training focus is on quickly developing pure reaction based on emotion, and reading situations/people. Not even close to Aikido, Hung Ga, or boxing training.

If you are a “martial artist” great, more power to you! You indeed have a respected and relevant spot in this “martial community”. Just don’t fall into the trap of believing you can go a few rounds, and do well because you know a form and it’s applications. Oddly enough it seems many martial artist’s fall into this trap. A perception realignment just might save you a black eye, or even your life in a serious self defense situation.

Your friendly nieghborhood FNG

19

FNG-Nice post, for the most part, as it talks specifically of attitude in training. However there is one point on which I feel I must comment, and that is the misuse of the term ,“Martial Art,” in which you are not alone.
Chinese use the term Martial Art (Mo-Nieye) which is distinguished from Martial Skill (Mo-Suht) as it pertains to a level of development that is beyond mere skill. It is a level where the person expresses the technique, whether it is boxing,painting,music,etc, through himself, and himself through it. It becomes a part of him. It is no less combative, or reality-based than anything else.
Westerners have taken this term and created a different interpetation, which is to mean a focusing on the performance aspect,rather than the combative.
I understand the motive, however, it is based on a false assumption.

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Live Hands

In my experience I’ve found that technique and forms are not enough. Physical development and internal training are essential. Once those are attained then sensitivity and a live hand must be mastered against a resistant, fighting opponent. Two man sets and Chi Sao are great tools to sharpen your technique but live fighting and footworks with control is essential.