I have the chance to explore the FMA a bit, and I actually have a choice between two different styles. Oh well, I’ll at least take a look at either one, just to see what stickfighting is about.
The two styles are Latosa Escrima and Balintawak Arnis. The Latosa Escrima is taught under the same organization as the Wing Tsun I practise, so it would be easy to get into, but there’s also some nice seminars about Balintawak Arnis going around here.
Any experience with either of these? Any experience with FMA in general that might be of interest?
I have considered studying FMA on the side of my other MA studies, just to get properly started in weapons training (though I’m intrigued by WT’s knife fighting .. though it may be more of a supplement to the empty hand skills, than as refined a system as tha FMA). Maybe visiting the Dog Brothers gathering next year if I get excited. Anyway, any insights would be interesting.
I’ve been training in Balintawak Arnis Cuentada for several months now. I am thoroughly enjoying it…granted the individual teacher makes all the difference, but there are other reasons.
realistic in-fighting: Balintawak fights at very close range, where most fights end up anyway
incorporation/blending of other styles: the grandmasters encourage incorporation of other styles into the empty-hand techniques. The empty hand stuff I’ve been learning combines things from FMA, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, and Silat. While your instructor may not have these particular styles under his belt, I’m sure he’ll have some extras for you.
little to no frilly crap: the stick techniques are (for the most part) realistic and easy to apply
50% weapons 50% empty: all of the stick techniques can be used empty-handed, so there is (in theory) no confusion in an actual situation if you’re armed or not
these are my personal opinions and experiences…if anyone out there disagrees with me, feel free to express your opinions, but I’m not here to start yet another flame war…I just wanted to share what I can
I’ve not studied either of those two specific styles. I’ve studied mostly doce pares eskrima. But both have solid reputations to my knowledge, and would be well worth checking out. (Obviously, it’s going to depend mostly on the instructor, as always.)
If you’re serious, I’d suggest checking out several books written by Mark V. Wiley on the filipino arts. I noticed a book of his recently that went into detailed descriptions of many of the varied eskrima styles, including many of the family offshoots. I’m relatively sure that Balintawak and Latosa eskrima both got their own treatments in that book. Wish I remembered the exact title for you though.
Emphases aside, though, the concepts should be relatively constant between the two styles. Stickwork, knifework, and perhaps bladework (machete, etc.) Excellent footwork, in my opinion. FMA was my first real exposure to the importance of footwork. And I think that represents the most important lesson learned.
Anyway, that’s where I’d start if I were you. The Wiley books and, if you can find it, Dan Inosanto’s book on the filipino martial arts.
I post this here because I know alot of JKD’ers study some filipino arts or at least training methods.
I was wondering, during anyones training/learning/research regarding sticks/angles of attack/weapondry etc, if anyone has run into anything specific regarding the tabla-tabla aka nunchaku.
Looking for websites - videos - books, possibly even teachers or other practicioners.
While I don’t (currently) practice with nunchakus, they do fit in my “way cool” category. The best website I’ve run across is SoulGrind’s Nunchaku Website. There he has plans for making your own nunchakus, video clips of him working different nunchaku moves and detailed explanations of each move (including potential hazards of doing the move), the video clip of Bruce Lee doing a nunchaku kata from one of his movies, and even a special “nunchaku jedi” video clip where he demonstrates what a pair of nunchakus make out of light sabers might look like. There is also a link to a forum on nunchakus. Have fun!
i haven’t come across much filipino source material specifically on the nunchaku (AKA tabak toyok). but if you wanted to start looking into it, i’d suggest looking at your twelve angles (most FMA systems have twelve basic angles; some more, some fewer). then concentrate on the diagonal ones at varying heights. i say the diagonal ones because in my limited experience, a pair of nunchaku hitting a solid target will come back on the trajectory they came in on. so if you swing horizontal, you end up bashing your own hand. (that may just be a function of my lack of skill with them, mind you.) on a diagonal swing, they tend not to do that.
thrusting would obviously be done with both handles held together. largo mano would work pretty much as you’d figure. and things like wings and sweeps (parrying) would have to be done either with the handles together, then swinging them normally for the counter, or with two hands (which eliminates your ability to use a checking hand).
I actually have many thoughts on the nunchaku. I have been trying to adapt 5 angle, 12 angle, and 36 angle filipino stick systems (training systems) to the nunchaku for a few months.
I will be back in a few hours to respond to your suggestions.
Too much work right now
What Im really looking for is possibly videos (there are thousands of filipino vidos out there) or even books (very doubtful here) or websites (i think i have exhausted this one myself already) - basically resources to people who have already done this work for me
The nunchaku get crazy. They function mainly as a short stick, but there are 2 neat things about them:
You can hold them together to actually have just 1 short stick. Or, you can still just hold one end, and use it like a short stick, but occasionally when doing some techniques you get the benefit of having that second half out there (hopefully) swinging around at your opponent. A good example of the latter here is a wing block. You can hold one end, using it as a short stick, wing block, and strike your opponent in the face, chest, or bicep.
Short Range:
Again, the nunchaku are crazy. mainly you use them as a sort stick, holding them together. There isent much you can do as far as swinging them, but as a short stick, you have all the short stick options - you also have the rope or chain you can utilize, for choking, joint locks, or just grabbing the opponent or his weapon somehow.
Angles of Attack:
Long and medium range, you can swing the nunchaku either as a stick (keeping both parts aligned) or ‘weird-like’ - hard to explain, but its swinging the nunchaku in a way that the second (un-held-portion) swings at a different angle then the handle-portion. Usually less power, but you can get away with swings at a closer distance, and you can go FASTER - which has no real value, until you start talking about the mystics and intimidation factor attached to the nunchaku (actually - displayed prowess with any weapon tends to have an intimidation factor attached.)
SO those are my (basic) thoughts on the nunchaku and the filipino systems, ap.
sounds like a good start to me. as you said, long range will probably work much as it always has:
zone away and hit the attacking limb with nunchaku
‘pass and hit’, zone away and let the attacking limb pass, then hit it on the backside
combination of both
medium range is where you’ll start to get into questions about transferring, parrying, disarming, etc. i suppose most of that would be done either two handed (with one hand on each section of the nunchaku) or holding them together (with one hand holding both handles and the other hand used for controlling as usual). in either event, the nunchaku could flail as your counterattack.
i’d suggest starting by trying some of the basic stick drills using your nunchaku.
for example:
single stick sinawali (ours is a 12-count) with your partner using a stick and you using nunchaku (to get accustomed to how the nunchaku will react when it interacts with a less flexible weapon)
some variation on hubud using the nunchaku (the trick to this one, which i haven’t figured out myself, would be using the folded nunchaku to transfer and then the open nunchaku to counter)
for close range, consider using the punyo of the folded nunchaku for hammerfist-type hits.
my guess would be that you end up doing less blocking and parrying and more evasion and countering.
Kali (also called ‘arnis’ and ‘escrima’) is primarily a weapons based art with the empty hand techniques being derived from the weapons- the rationale being that you should always fight with a weapon first and that you only use empty hands when disarmed. This is the opposite of many CMA which teach hands first and weapons last.
There are typically 12 ‘angles’ of attacking with a blade/stick- three stabbing angles and and 9 slashing angles.
The slashing angles correspond roughly to all the ways you would hit a tennis ball- e.g. forehand, backhand, overhead, lob, scoop, volley etc
Also there are three main types of slash
-lobtik-striking through the target
witik-strike at the target
and
-redondo- wrist twisting strike
Then there are three main fighting ranges
-largo- long range- here the target is the enemys outstretched arm which is holding his weapon
Medio- medium range- here the target is the enemys body
Corto- short range- here again the target is the opponents body but this time the butt of the weapon is used.
There are drills to train each range (called sumrada (counter for counter drill at medium range) and hubud (counter for counter drill at short range - has similarities to wing chun chi sau and tai chi push hands) as well as to transition smoothly from one to another.
There are two vertical refence points i.e. heaven/high (stick points up) and earth/low (stick points down).
If you are using one stick then the live/empty hand also comes in to play - to check/parry.
Two sticks together is called sinawali.
Shadow boxing is called carenza.
Also there are
guntings (limb destructions)
dumog (grappling/joint locks)
Panajackman and panantukan (hand/feet boxing/strikes)
and kino muntao (biting)
Ive done WC for six years and have dabbled with Kali on the side.
Personally I prefer to concentrate on WC- but Kali can help you develop some key attributes such as understanding of range, flow, movement, timing, evasion, accuracy, footwork etc.
Its a very good art - especially if you want to learn weapons now rather than many years down the road.
Whether you want to do it is up to you- you might not want to sacrifice training time that could otherwise be spent on WC.
Many JKD guys like to mix the two - check out Paul vunaks stuff for more info.
Word of warning - sometimes the Kali concept will conflict with the WC concept e.g. in WC our target is the opponents COG while in Kali it is the attacking limb. Also in kali they ‘lean’ whereas as you know in WC we do not compromise our WC posture.
To add to what has been said-
I practice wing chun and escrima ( have been ofr the past 3 years)
1-THere is a great deal of variety in the filipino martial arts, maybe equal to the variety you come across in chinese martial arts.
2- The words kali, escrima, and arnis may or may not be used interchangeably depending on the style and what they have been taught or believe. ( that is a big arguement for some people)
3- Some styles emphasis knife,or knives more than sticks or swords, some styles emphasize single stick, vs. double, some are in to knife and stick or espada y daga and so on.
4- Some styles have a prefered range corto, medio or largo , some work all three.
5- Not all use the same 12 angles some may use less, and they may attack them differently.
6- THere are also differences in the way some styles strike and and use the body to generate power.
7- As a wing chun practitioner i would recommend pekiti tersia as its a close range system like wing chun, and has a great deal of material in ti if you have the time to learn it. I dont practice pekiti but based on my experience and observation I will take it up eventually.
8- THe filipino arts are definitly some good stuff to learn if you can.
Originally posted by Nick Forrer
[B]okay here goes
Kali (also called ‘arnis’ and ‘escrima’) is primarily a weapons based art with the empty hand techniques being derived from the weapons- the rationale being that you should always fight with a weapon first and that you only use empty hands when disarmed. This is the opposite of many CMA which teach hands first and weapons last.
[/B]
no diss on escrimna, cause I checked it out and it looked ok…and I love my stick, but doesn’t this philosophy seem a little…ahhhh…???idunno…
but weapons are cumbersome…have their place but cumbersome…you know??? ..especially for practical ma use…whatever…moving on…
i can understand that not everybody wants to carry a weapon ,but if someone attacks you with a weapon ,knife or whatever , and if on top of that they have training with a weapon your empty hand skills may not be able to deal with it ( no disrespect intended)
You may possibly have no idea how dangerous a person with a knife can be. At the same time even if you dont have a knife or stick handy you may find something in the area or street that you can use as a substitute very effectively.
Although it is very easy to carry a knife concealed, and many people do.
no diss on escrimna, cause I checked it out and it looked ok…and I love my stick, but doesn’t this philosophy seem a little…ahhhh…???idunno…
but weapons are cumbersome…have their place but cumbersome…you know??? ..especially for practical ma use…whatever…moving on… [/B]
you gotta remember that when this are was created, everyone in the PI had weapons. you HAD to know how to fight with one. The empty hand system was to be used if you were disarmed.
Also, weapons aren’t as cumbersome as you think. Sure, if you are walking around with a naginata or a monk spade, maybe, but I can pull a tactical folder and cut you before you realize what happened. kali is a stick and knife art, so it’s tactics can be used with the folder.
Originally posted by blooming lotus I have some ninjitsu and some good dim mak…I’m ok with peeps with weapons
if that’s all you have, then you really shouldn’t feel okay against someone with a weapon. Try this experiment - wear some old clothes that you don’t mind messing up. get a training partner to take a marker and attack you with it, as if it were a knife. When you’re done, look at where you are marked. those are the places you woulda been cut.
