Rant: Kali-What MMA do to feel exotic?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

I’ve noticed that Kali seems to be pretty popular among the MMA these days.

Ironically, respect for kali has filtered down to the MMA troll, people who probably don’t really know all that much about fighting, but think they do because, well, after all, they’re MMA!

Now, the MMA troll likes to attack the traditional martial artist over their silly traditions, yet will spout off jargon in another language with great pride as long as it is kali, or another martial art that has become accepted in the popular lexicon of MMA.

To be sure, kali is an awesome art, but isn’t it somewhat duplicitious to, on the one hand, lambast the traditional martial artists for their traditions, and, on the other, to take part in similar traditions to learn kali?

This is not an attack on MMA, frankly, I don’t believe there really is such a thing as mixed martial arts(my style is a hybrid of hsing yi, pa kua, and mantis, therefore I suppose I’m a MMA, plus I have some longfist and a bit of wrestling). I’m just commenting that it’s OK in some moron’s oxygen deprived brain(too many chokes) to crosstrain in one traditional art, but others are too traditional.

After all, Kali is a traditional martial art. Hell, wrestling is too. Boxing, for that matter, though some of the tradition is not popular due to the fact that everyone uses gloves now(dropped elbows and such).

So, what will be the next “non-traditional” art? Pankratian?

[End of rant]

2

KC Elbows,

That’s an interesting point. Think about muay thai. Depending on who’s teaching it, that can be an extremely traditional art. And I have to agree about kali. My first school certainly wasn’t the most traditional, but at the same time, it was just as much so as many of the other schools I’ve seen.

Ironically, I think the perceived appeal is just the opposite. (And I say perceived because that’s what we’re really talking about here. Not truth. But people’s perceptions about a given style.) I think the appeal of things like kali are that they are more traditional.

Kali hasn’t been in the general public’s view for as long as taekwondo, kung fu, or karate have. So a lot of the concessions that come along with mass consumption haven’t been made yet (though they’re beginning to occur).

Think about karate. Safe to say that the McDojos are an altered version of the original dojos. And they were altered to appeal to a wider audience. The same will happen (is happening) with kali. But for the time being, it still holds the image of being an untainted battlefield art. In other words, it’s still viewed as serving the same purpose today that it did in the beginning. That’s something that many kung fu, karate, and taekwondo schools have lost through mass consumption. That image (as opposed to that reality).

You’re right that it doesn’t make much sense though. It’s sort of a reasoning shortcut that people take.

Stuart B.

3

Don’t know about MMA. The people I know that are don’t consider themselves as such. Many of the boxers I know are gravitating towards Grav Maga. (Probably a good choice)

4

I was kind of expecting a rash of Hollywood Kali after “The Bourne Identity.”

As for trolls, I’m sure they will be weighing in shortly. I have never met an MMA or BJJ person in “real life” who acts the way that MMA and BJJ people act online, so I assume that a) MMA and BJJ people turn into instant jerks when they log on, or b) the jerks aren’t really MMA and BJJ people, or c) I just haven’t met the right jerks.

(PS: Some good natured joking about TMAs does go on among the BJJ folks with whom I train. That’s because several of those people are very good at one TMA or another, so it gives us something to bust them about. But no one I train with seriously disrespects TMAs.)

5

For the record, I am going to start training Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and I have not yet seen The Bourne Identity.

6

SDriver,

Being online, I think, gives people the anonymity to be jerks in a way that they wouldn’t dare in person. MMA, TMA, regardless.

As for the Bourne Identity, I doubt it’ll affect the popularity of kali much. Getting back to the image thing, people oddly don’t really make the connection with kali unless there are two sticks involved. (Ironically, ‘The Perfect Weapon’ did far more for kali than I expect ‘The Bourne Identity’ to do. But the American Kenpo guys that performed demonstrations at the theatre when TPW came out used to get REAL cranky when onlookers asked if it was FMA.)

Stuart B.

7

ewallace,

I didn’t mean to suggest that Kali students are trend-riders… just that I expected a bit of an upswing in popularity because of its role in a feature film. Then again, it may have been chosen for the film because of an upswing in popularity. :slight_smile:

What are your reasons for taking it, i.e., what is Kali supposed to bring to the mix that you’re not getting elsewhere? The information I’ve been able to find on it is kind of murky as to what it’s actually like, and I haven’t seen the movie either.

For my purposes, it’s academic, as there are no Escrima/Kali instructors in my area. But I am curious, as it does seem to be bandied about more these days.

8

Well, I guess you would call me an MMA guy. To be honest, i think traditional Kali is pretty overrated myself (not that it doesn’t have some value). I am by no means an expert at it but i had some exposure to it during my time in JKDC and through some friends of mine. To me the weapons aspect seems to have some useful stuff in it, but it is also bogged down by a lot of fancy patterns and useless flashiness. As for the empty hand aspect, believe it or not I find a lot of kung fu and karate systems to be more practical.

As for the ideas about “traditional” MA, I think you have a point. The term “traditional” is misused a lot in common martial arts discussions. Using the literal definition, an art such as Muay Thai can be considered a very “traditional” style. Whereas something such as TKD, which really isn’t that old of an art and was invented as a sport, probably shouldn’t be considered “traditional”. When MMA people talk about “traditional” arts i don’t think they are referring so much to the cultural history of the art as they are referring to the methods of training and mentality.

9

In my case I had a choice between Kenpo, TKD, krav maga, wing chun and Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. I have done kenpo, I will never do TKD, krav was too expensive, and wing chun just didn’t spark my interest. I went last night to check out the P-T and I was very impressed. I have made my decision based on these factors (in no particular order):

  1. I felt at home from the moment I walked into the studio. The students and instructors were very friendly.

  2. The class was organized, layed-back but very serious at the same time. They worked very hard, and generally seemed to have a good time doing it.

  3. The fees are very reasonable.

  4. The instructor said both of these things to students:
    a. You will get hit
    b. You fight like you train

  5. There is not as much political b.s… yet.

  6. The system is very organized.

  7. Instructors must fight.

  8. It even looks fun to practice outside of class.

  9. I’m excited like a 6 year old boy on christmas morning about training in P-T. Something I have not felt about the others I looked at.

While not everyone will agree with these principals, they are very important to me. I have done an exhausting amount of research to find a school that met most, if not every one of my needs. My area has very few choices.

10

Ewallace,

I’m glad to hear that the class worked out for you. That’s excellent.

Stuart B.

11

Thanks. I appreciate the info you have me too. Believe me I soaked in every bit of info I could from every possible point of view. I was handed very little that weighed in on the negative side.

12

That’s great. I’m glad it worked out for you.

Stuart B.

[redundant much, stuart?!]

13

Dragonzrage,
I’m curious what elements of training we’re talking about that distinguish traditional from contemporary. For instance, one could say weight training, but weight training isn’t really part of martial arts, it’s part of weight training. Almost every school I’ve seen, traditional or no, there were some members who lifted, and some who did not.

Or is it sparring? Again, I’ve seen grappling classes that rolled, but did not free fight, and I’ve seen kung fu schools(my own included) that allowed things to go to the ground, as long as something was being learned, even if it is “Gosh, I suck at groundwork”, that, in itself, is a good thing to learn.

I’m not disagreeing with you at all, just trying to define some stuff here. I suppose forms would be one thing that counts as traditional. Can you think of others?

Ap/EWallace,
Is it true that kali blade work is descended from spanish fencing? I heard that somewhere, but I don’t know enough on the topic to tell whether it’s true, as I know little fencing, and only three kali patterns, and I don’t even know what those patterns are called. They’re common practice from what I’ve seen, two practitioners do them with sticks in each hand, and the first pattern was like up-up-down as far as targetting, there was a down-up-down pattern, basically different targets, bu the same motion, with the sticks resting at the side of the head and under the armpit on the same side between striking.

14

KC Elbows,

It’s called sinawali. ‘Weaving.’ Refers to any number of partner drills of that sort, though usually it refers to double stick drills like the ones you describe.

It’s true that there’s a lot of fencing influence, yes. That said (and Black Jack, et al., feel free to correct me on this), that may represent one of the differences between kali and eskrima/arnis. Essentially, all three terms refer to the same basic arts. But it’s similar to saying that Goju ryu karate shows more or less Chinese influence than Shotokan despite their both being karate.

Kali is a term used in the Southern Philippines, which tend to show more Moro influence than the north. Whether fencing played a large part in the South, I don’t know.

Eskrima and arnis are both Spanish terms though. ‘Esgrima’ is the Spanish word for fencing. ‘Skirmish’, literally. And ‘arnis de mano’ means ‘harness (armour) of the hand.’ Both names show some Spanish influence.

I fenced a little in college, specifically because I was curious about that link myself. A lot of the maneuvers were the same, particularly with sabre fencing (as sabre allows for slashing as well as thrusting).

Stuart B.

15

Cool. Thanks for the info.

16

No worries.

Stuart B.

17

Ap:

What lineage(s) or types of arnis did you learn or are training?

18

mostly doce pares. i train now with an instructor out of dan inosanto’s lineage though, so it gets a bit more complicated after that. but in terms of definite lineage, doce pares.

stuart b.

19

To better understand the situation, realize that when an MMA guy says ‘traditional’ he actually means ‘someone who doesn’t train well.’ It’s a wierd kind of dialect that has sprung up.

20

Braden,

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. “Traditional” has become a bad buzzword for poor training. Which is absurd.

Stuart B.