Just a personal observation

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

It’s just misleading because people see forms and think “that guy is practicing fighting techniques.”

As much as I don’t want to say it, forms are basically like a dance. They require great skill, flexibility, balance, technique, and endurance, but they don’t really have any applicability to actual fighting against a resisting opponent.

They have their uses, though. Forms are a great workout, just like weight lifting is a great workout. But neither forms nor weight lifting contain fighting techniques.

Forms can also serve to catalog techniques. You might have a form that contains all the techniques in a style. That’s another purpose they serve. Whether or not those techniques work against a resisting opponent is another question, however.

Forms are awesome at being what they are. But it’s misleading to suggest they are fighting. They look like fighting to the uninitiated, so they’re impressive, and that’s probably why they’re used.

Cuz come on, who doesn’t think a form done well looks cool?

If you’re a noob, they’re super awesome.

If you’re a fighter, you know they’re not fighting, but they’re still cool looking.

And it’s funny that the flashier they look, the less like fighting they are, and the more they impress people :smiley:

When someone does a jumping spinning back kick people are like "holy cow! That guy is a bad ass don’t f- with him! He’s an awesome martial artist!

42

It’s just misleading because people see forms and think “that guy is practicing fighting techniques.”

if i’m not practicing fighting techniques in my form then what am i practicing? i mean, if my “POON KIU YUM CHOP KWA SOW” isn’t a fighting technique, what is it? in fact, break each technique down to single components, they all have something to do with fighting. period.

As much as I don’t want to say it, forms are basically like a dance. They require great skill, flexibility, balance, technique, and endurance, but they don’t really have any applicability to actual fighting against a resisting opponent.

how is that any different than a boxer doing shadow boxing? one SHOULD be thinking about and react with intent with doing their forms. don’t know about you, but my forms are packed with fighting combo’s, both defensive and offensive and a combo of both all at the same time. so i can’t relate to what you’re saying here.

Forms are awesome at being what they are. But it’s misleading to suggest they are fighting. They look like fighting to the uninitiated, so they’re impressive, and that’s probably why they’re used.

in my whole 30 years of CLF i’ve never once heard that a form will make you a great fighter. happy that my sifu never mislead us into believing that.

to ALL that are uninitiated to any style experienced or not, if you don’t know the system, you can’t say its not effective until one you fought them or learned the style.

If you’re a fighter, you know they’re not fighting, but they’re still cool looking

only a newb, dweeb, geek, simp, punk, busta, chump, nerd and the like would think a form represent fighting.

And it’s funny that the flashier they look, the less like fighting they are, and the more they impress people

thats why its called a PERFORMANCE. :smiley:

43

I like to create my own form (drills). The folowing sequence may not look as pretty as any TCMA form, but it’s much closer to the true combat:

  • right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook,
  • left front kick, right roundhouse kick, right side kick, left turn hook kick,
  • leg twist, leg lift, leg block, front cut,
  • …
44

There are people who do forms as a dance and people who do them for fighting. For properly trained martial artists doing forms is not that different from fighting as they maintain the fighting awareness and know what they are doing with each move. However they can only have that awareness if they also have the experience of sparring or fighting with resistant opponents. There is also different types of audience. For most normal untrained people probably exaggerated dancing forms would be more exciting. For slightly more trained people who don’t know what they should look at yet, probably forms wouldn’t be that exciting but for advanced martial artists who can differentiate martial artists from dancers, forms would also be a good means to see someone’s skills.

45

This morning I woke up with this terrible back pain,a real hard,stiff lower back pain.At work today I really could not function normally.
After I get off from work ,walking to my building,I am still in pain.Thats it I say "no training today"its gonna be dinner, reading and early to bed.So I’m waiting for a buddy to have dinner with and I got some time to kill.Maybe Ill just walk through my form.I do it real slow,locking in each stance,coordinating body, hands and legs the best I can.By the third WA! I feel A little looser,now I can sink a little deeper in stance.By the end of the set I feel smooth and 80% pain is gone.I walked to the resturant with no pain.
If I got into a fight before I did this,god help me.If I got into a fight after I did this,well,god help them!
I hit pads,bags,sometimes training partners,I generally like to hit things.I love doing intervals with kettlbells or body weight exercises.Even yoga I do sometimes.I dont think any of this stuff would have helped me as much as doing this one simple,well composed little combat dance.

46

[QUOTE=MightyB;1181877]I’m not saying forms or forms training is bad - like my sig says, I like forms.

What I’m saying is that solo empty hand routines are a bad way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public. IMO I say we need to think about how we demo TCMA to the world.[/QUOTE]

Probably only a minority of the general public would think like that. In my experience for most of them Kungfu is what they have seen in the fantasy land of Kungfu movies and the only way to attract their attention would be exaggerated dancing moves.

Furthermore more practical drills and sparring would be boring for many people because they don’t look as beautiful and untrained people won’t be able to see the techniques.

47

[QUOTE=IronFist;1181899]
As much as I don’t want to say it, forms are basically like a dance. They require great skill, flexibility, balance, technique, and endurance, but they don’t really have any applicability to actual fighting against a resisting opponent.
[/QUOTE]

I often think that if you were to get a random sample of videos showing empty handed solo martial arts forms and an equal number of videos showing modern interpretive dance and then asked a group of people to identify which were dance and which were martial arts - it’d be a 50/50 toss up.

When someone does a demo of judo they don’t do representitive motions of throws against the air - they throw someone. Compare that to a demo of someone doing a traditional form. Which do you think the audience would say is an arse kicking martial art?

48

[QUOTE=MightyB;1181909]

When someone does a demo of judo they don’t do representitive motions of throws against the air - they throw someone. Compare that to a demo of someone doing a traditional form. Which do you think the audience would say is an arse kicking martial art?[/QUOTE]

You can always say that it’s too deadly to be demonstrated like those childish throws so that you can keep the element of mystery. That would be convincing for most people and has worked so far but there is a minority who would want to test your skills. In that case you should also have some practical skills and should be ready to convince them in person by beating them in sparring.

49

I think this a decent way to demo kung fu.

It’s choreographed, but IMO it has the ooh and ahhh factor plus big throws.

50

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1181900]only a newb, dweeb, geek, simp, punk, busta, chump, nerd and the like would think a form represent fighting.[/quote]

The first post in this thread is talking about demonstrating them to the general public.

The general public is full of MA newbs.

51

[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1181908]Probably only a minority of the general public would think like that. In my experience for most of them Kungfu is what they have seen in the fantasy land of Kungfu movies and the only way to attract their attention would be exaggerated dancing moves.

Furthermore more practical drills and sparring would be boring for many people because they don’t look as beautiful and untrained people won’t be able to see the techniques.[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you just wrote here.

52

[QUOTE=MightyB;1181913]I think this a decent way to demo kung fu.

It’s choreographed, but IMO it has the ooh and ahhh factor plus big throws.[/QUOTE]

Looks like some aikido stuff but there are some cool throws in there.

53

[QUOTE=MightyB;1181828]I don’t think solo empty hand forms should be used to demonstrate kung fu anymore. Keeping them in the kwoon for training purposes is fine, but IMO they’re a terrible way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public.[/QUOTE]

We are representing Chinese Kung Fu… Chinese Kung Fu has forms in it? Why do we try to take a square peg and try to put it into a round hole?

[QUOTE=MightyB;1181913]I think this a decent way to demo kung fu.

It’s choreographed, but IMO it has the ooh and ahhh factor plus big throws.[/QUOTE]

The vid is ok but this not encompass all of Chinese Kung Fu… What about weapon forms? Chin Na demos? What about hat awesome 2 person spear vs 3 section staff? When we do demos… we have Forms, kids self defense, weapons, shuai chiao,womens self defense, chin na, iron palm etc… we give everyone the whole scope of the art.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1181850]I don’t understand why people don’t just train solo drills (when they don’t have training partner)? A simple drill such as

  • hammer fist,
  • groin kick,
  • face punch,

If you repeat this combo 20 times, it’s just like a form with 60 moves.

To only repeat any technique 1 time in form training can hardly develop any “muscle memory”.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1181869]Form is for “teaching” and “learning” only. It’s not for “training”.[/QUOTE]

I kinda dis agree wit ya here YKW.

What is a form? It is a bunch of those single techniqes you mentioned above put into a sequence. Forearm Block, then Hammer Fist, then Groin kick etc etc. All these single techniques were put into patterns for a purpose.

Forms are more than just single techniques strung together. Forms make a complete Chinese Martial Artist, they can increase flexibility, increase dynamic strength, teach footwork, teach basic fighting combos, increase your cardio endurance (needed for fighting)… I could go on and on… etc

I do agree with you that drill solo or small combos prepare you for battle. However you get these from your forms. This explains it the best:
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1181889]If that’s the case, then you’re missing the point.
ok, here’s how it all went down;

a gazillion years ago, when TCMAists were fighting for their lives and trained their soldiers for combat, did they do forms, or drills, drills, drills,conditioning and fighting?
Answer? Drills, drills, drills, etc.

Fast forward a bunch’a years-people are overthrowing the Chings and training in secret, etc.
Ok, so did they practice forms, or drills, drills, drills, etc.?
Answer?-Drills, drills, drills, etc.

ok, Fast forward another bunch’a years, and nobody’s fighting. Instead, all the teachers are trying to eek out a living from their Martial Art.
So..they start doing demos, to show off their skillz and lure, oops, I meant attract students to their school.
What do you show? A bunch of sweaty guys doing conditioning, and beating the bejeezus out of each other, or the Cool Tiger/Crane set?

And..how do you attract people to YOUR school instead of Master Lee’s school down the street?
“We do the Drunken Fist!”
“Well, WE do the Monkey Fist!”

And so it went.

Originally, forms (the textbook)were only taught to lineage bearers who were chosen to pass on the system.
Students don’t need the textbook-they have it right there. Their Sifu.
Only NOW, forms are taught to all the students as part of the curriculum.
NOW, we teach forms to maintain interest and enrollment.

*I am speaking only of textbook/kuen-faht type forms.
my next post will contradict all of this…sort of.[/QUOTE]

ginosifu

54

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1181889]If that’s the case, then you’re missing the point.
ok, here’s how it all went down;

a gazillion years ago, when TCMAists were fighting for their lives and trained their soldiers for combat, did they do forms, or drills, drills, drills,conditioning and fighting?
Answer? Drills, drills, drills, etc.

Fast forward a bunch’a years-people are overthrowing the Chings and training in secret, etc.
Ok, so did they practice forms, or drills, drills, drills, etc.?
Answer?-Drills, drills, drills, etc.

ok, Fast forward another bunch’a years, and nobody’s fighting. Instead, all the teachers are trying to eek out a living from their Martial Art.
So..they start doing demos, to show off their skillz and lure, oops, I meant attract students to their school.
What do you show? A bunch of sweaty guys doing conditioning, and beating the bejeezus out of each other, or the Cool Tiger/Crane set?

And..how do you attract people to YOUR school instead of Master Lee’s school down the street?
“We do the Drunken Fist!”
“Well, WE do the Monkey Fist!”

And so it went.

Originally, forms (the textbook)were only taught to lineage bearers who were chosen to pass on the system.
Students don’t need the textbook-they have it right there. Their Sifu.
Only NOW, forms are taught to all the students as part of the curriculum.
NOW, we teach forms to maintain interest and enrollment.

*I am speaking only of textbook/kuen-faht type forms.
my next post will contradict all of this…sort of.[/QUOTE]
Game, set and Match.

55

you have to read the first post

Anyway - don’t think like someone who’s well versed in Chinese Martial Arts. Clear your head. Now think about what would appeal to someone who knows nothing about martial arts.

What’s cool? Lion Dance, Weapons Demos, 2 and 3 person sets, Technique Demonstrations, gung demonstrations (ip, is, magnetic palms, etc)

Think about the length of time of the demo, the sequence, the sounds that the audience hears, etc.

What makes a good demo? If you include a solo sequence - don’t kill the mood, everything has to ad to the crescendo. Leave the audience wanting more.

56

IME most people who don’t know much about martial arts would rather see a cool form than realistic fighting drills.

Also, well–fighting doesn’t look too different in application between styles–but forms really do. If there’s anything that really differentiates most kung fu from other MA styles, it’s the complexity/beauty of the forms.

57

Maybe Kung Fu should just stop doing banquet hall demonstrations period and start focusing on training some real fighters so the handful of students it has left that are part of that .001 % of the population willing to challenge themselves don’t have to to keep going to MMA gyms to find that challenge.

Invariably the assumption is that kung fu needs to be promoted more, that the problem is the old world secrecy and internecine animosity among schools. Only if they could work together to promote Chinese martial arts we would have, what? Greater market share among daycare centers and figure skating schools?

Now I don’t own a school (or publish a periodical) so I’m not biased by any need to meet a certain threshold of enrollment in order to maintain a lifestyle therefore I have the luxury of being able to disagree.

By definition the value of something is inversely proportional to its popularity. I don’t think it needs to be promoted at all. Kung Fu will never get any more popular than it already is. What Kung Fu needs is to dispense with the effeminate pageantry and start training some fighters. Take it underground, make it less popular. Hipster martial arts, but hardcore martial arts.

58

i liked the vid that sanjuro put up. it form, application, breaking, weapon, etc.. in that demo you saw the guy do the form, then two guys doing application while a third was showing the section of the form that is being applied while they apply it, and then also boards being broken with the same techniques being demo in that section of the form.

imo if you want to demo your school, you should show people a bit of everything you do. so they can get a good idea of what it is they will be doing if they join.

but just a form? no. i think you need to show more than that.

59

[QUOTE=Lucas;1181966]i liked the vid that sanjuro put up. it form, application, breaking, weapon, etc.. in that demo you saw the guy do the form, then two guys doing application while a third was showing the section of the form that is being applied while they apply it, and then also boards being broken with the same techniques being demo in that section of the form.

imo if you want to demo your school, you should show people a bit of everything you do. so they can get a good idea of what it is they will be doing if they join.

but just a form? no. i think you need to show more than that.[/QUOTE]

In that clip, you saw the essence of Uechi-ryu, you saw their training, applications, the way they fight, everything.
That is what a demo is.
When we used to do TKD demos, we might do one syncronized form, one advanced form, but most was sparring, self-defence and breaking, exactly what you see in a grading for example.

60

Maybe Kung Fu should just stop doing banquet hall demonstrations period and start focusing on training some real fighters so the handful of students it has left that are part of that .001 % of the population willing to challenge themselves don’t have to to keep going to MMA gyms to find that challenge.

nah, that’s no good. banquet gung fu is awesome. period. it won’t happen, ever in your lifetime. not sorry bout it either.

By definition the value of something is inversely proportional to its popularity. I don’t think it needs to be promoted at all. Kung Fu will never get any more popular than it already is. What Kung Fu needs is to dispense with the effeminate pageantry and start training some fighters. Take it underground, make it less popular. Hipster martial arts, but hardcore martial arts.

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