its in the results

Victor,

To me, Wing chun’s strenths are standup in-fighting; close combat if you will. So it only exists for a moment in time with most fights, depending on how well one is able to control what game is being played.

I use wing chun whenever the moment is right and it works well for me. As soon as I’m in bridging range the techniques come out naturally–but typically I’ll move directly into clinching or exteme close range–usually to use elbows or go to a takedown of some sort–OR we will separate—or I will use the wing chun maxim and maintain my close quarters. So many things that can change, so many variables.

I don’t think that wing chun exponents need to do anything other than…train like a fighter? I.E. conditioning and sparring more often – if that is the wing chun person’s goal.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;874947]Quite, that is why one must do what we can WHEN we can do it.

I don;t think anyone disagrees anymore, not anyone sane anyways.

I think that IF you take up a MA, you MUST have a fighter’s mentality even if you are no longer a fighter or even never want to be.

Following the MMA route is not somethign advice anyone to do, following a cross training route, yes.
There is a difference.
If you get nothing else out of it, which I doubt, you at least get to “know your enemy”.[/QUOTE]

Yes, if you are training with a wide variety of specialists, you will be more familiar with thy enemies, much more so than someone that doesn’t, agreed:)

Crosstraining is of course a good thing, if your needs require that you have a more complete package as a “Fighter” per say. If your goals are different, or you are not interested in fighting (fighting= skills comparison with another person with fight training behind them), then the necessity to “cross train” is less IMO. I do believe it is vital to experience and use your training against a variety of specialist like wrestlers, BJJ, MT, Boxers, Kickers etc… to be able to utilize effectively what you are training in. This is different than being told you are only effective if you cross train, to which I don’t agree. I read some of Sihing73’s posts, and I basically agree with that type of thinking.

To each their own though, and I would never take away the opportunity for someone to do what they feel they need to do to be effective as a fighter or Martial Artist. MA are so individualized in the end, that it is hard to have concrete answers to some of the issues that arise on this forum. We all do what we feel we have to do based on our own needs and wants.

James

I think it’s hippocritcal to think that someone of average ability and time commitment should follow the MMA route, there is too much going on, too much to be learned, with not enough time to learn it all correctly. I have a student who trained in a MMA school here, he found the training was very hard with injuries arising on a steady basis. He stopped training there for that fact, as it wasn’t what he needed nor was he looking for that type of training. If you are, fine, but not everyone is, that why it is good that there are a variety of arts out there, as one of them will surely fulfil someone’s needs and wants.

While I think, James, that your post was pretty much bang on, I don’t think MMA training has to be like this.

The MMA class I go to has women, a guy of 55 years and myself at 53. The skills are also touched on in the kids’ classes. There are a couple or three of guys (out of about 30 regulars) who have fought professional MMA in the class. My instructor has fought professional Shooto, kickboxing, and BJJ, and also trained and been the cornerman for Australian UFC fighters.

We all do the same stuff, which is self-defense and skill oriented. I’ve seen few injuries and no serious ones. The pro fighters do extra conditioning and sparring sessions. Just about everyone wrestles hard, but full power striking is reserved for the hardcore and even they don’t do it every session.

Effective MMA techniques do NOT necessarily require an elite level of fitness. I agree that the culture of some MMA gyms and MMA events is all thuggery and testosterone - but there are those which train the discipline but keep a more mature and respectful culture, like that of some TMA schools - not that TMA is exactly perfect overall in that regard either. Per Bowling for Columbine - “lotta whacko’s out there” on both sides of the TMA/MMA fence.

Most of the best instructors I have been privileged to study with can tailor their instruction for the spectrum from the pro athlete to the once-a-week family person who wants an interesting way to keep fit, and to kids.

Pretty much the same with any MA - some people want to push the outside of the emvelope, others just to explore what they can in the time they have without having to front up to work with black eyes and injuries.

Despite accusations to the contrary, I don’t practice MMA - I do Wing Chun and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I really only go to MMA because it’s on before the advanced BJJ class, I go there straight from work, and it beats sitting around watching for an hour.

As regards Victor’s list of role models, yes these are full time professionals. But everyone needs role models ot aspire to, just like many of us did, with Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and our own instructors and WC ancestors.

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;874929]
How do you see wing chun being able to make such a (hopefully) seamless mma marriage as time goes on?[/QUOTE]

WC is a stand up style. It is complimented by a ground fighting style such as Brazilian ju jitsu.

However if someone is very strong in the striking department, a style that concentrates on throws/takedowns and defending them can help them dictate the fight and keep the other person playing to their strength. e.g. Wrestling

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;874932]Actually, I have always preached that:
One core specific art (choose your poison)
And “round it off/finish it” with what you need, INCLUDING WEAPONS.
WC is no different, it is not a complete system, it6 is a specialized form of H2H and the one that used it best, like Alan’s guys since he was mentioned earlier, are those the use its strengths and make up for its weaknesses.[/QUOTE]

I often wonder if its possible in todays world, of wife, kids, job to cross train more than (MAYBE IF YOUR LUCKY) two martial arts. Honestly I only have half of a job and just got done with school.. I don’t know how people with all three even find time for one martial art. I know people that do BJJ, Sanda, and kali… to me you can only dabble in them… but to play devils advocate against myself people compete and win.
I’m trying to figure out how I can continue doing BJJ and WC with a full time job…

I wish I had the idea to do this stuff when I started college. (7 years ago.. when I did basically nothing all day everyday with no job).

outside of people who own gyms … do normal people have time to master two arts? I often go back and forth on that subject. I personally don’t know.

just some food for thought when thinking about crosstraining.

[QUOTE=Edmund;875024]WC is a stand up style. It is complimented by a ground fighting style such as Brazilian ju jitsu.

However if someone is very strong in the striking department, a style that concentrates on throws/takedowns and defending them can help them dictate the fight and keep the other person playing to their strength. e.g. Wrestling[/QUOTE]

I don’t think really WC is a great compliment to BJJ. JMO I’m sure I’ll get some crap for this.. being that I’m a hypocrite..

wrestling or MT to me would prove better. Maybe if you only focused on positioning in BJJ and escapes..

MT from simply a training method and clinching perspective has so much to offer a WC fighter. Granted you are going to do allot of things different, but just doing your game with their training methods.. I think allot of people would be surprised at finding what works and what doesn’t.

Are you saying:

  1. BJJ isn’t the best choice as a second art for a WC guy

or

  1. WC isn’t the best choice as a second art for a BJJ guy?

I don’t necessarily disagree, with option 2 I’m leaning toward the same opinion, but I think as a primarily standup fighter whatever my standup art I’d want my second art to be oriented to groundwork.

John Wayne Parr, multiple K1 veteran and arguably the best MT guy ever from Australia, lost very quickly in his MMA bout against Tony Bonello when the fight went to the ground. Bonello’s cred on the ground is open to question - he’s fought few really good opponents and was made to look helpless by Ninja Rua in a recent MMA bout.

Muay Thai is great, but it ain’t necessarily the total solution either.

I would say, however, that BJJ is an essential art for the Glorified Kickboxer, a category of Outer Darkness into which many of us have been recently cast. :stuck_out_tongue:

[QUOTE=monji112000;875036]I don’t think really WC is a great compliment to BJJ. JMO I’m sure I’ll get some crap for this.. being that I’m a hypocrite..
[/QUOTE]

Correct. You’re a hypocrite. WTF? You do both…

wrestling or MT to me would prove better. Maybe if you only focused on positioning in BJJ and escapes..

I seriously don’t think you understand my logic when I said it compliments WC.
WC, the stand-up style, needs a groundfighting style to cover the area where it’s not strong. Logic is: On the feet, you use your WC. On the ground, BJJ.

MT from simply a training method and clinching perspective has so much to offer a WC fighter. Granted you are going to do allot of things different, but just doing your game with their training methods.. I think allot of people would be surprised at finding what works and what doesn’t.

Now it’s time for me to be the hypocrite (I’ve done a lot of MT). But if you already study WC and you take up MT, you’re still going to have very little groundfighting training.

I do agree that MT has many things to offer a WC fighter though. It’s just a matter of finding what specifics fit with your WC.

[QUOTE=Edmund;875042]Correct. You’re a hypocrite. WTF? You do both…

I seriously don’t think you understand my logic when I said it compliments WC.
WC, the stand-up style, needs a groundfighting style to cover the area where it’s not strong. Logic is: On the feet, you use your WC. On the ground, BJJ.

Now it’s time for me to be the hypocrite (I’ve done a lot of MT). But if you already study WC and you take up MT, you’re still going to have very little groundfighting training.

I do agree that MT has many things to offer a WC fighter though. It’s just a matter of finding what specifics fit with your WC.[/QUOTE]

I say Oorah

[QUOTE=Edmund;875042]…WC, the stand-up style, needs a groundfighting style to cover the area where it’s not strong. Logic is: On the feet, you use your WC. On the ground, BJJ.
Now it’s time for me to be the hypocrite (I’ve done a lot of MT). But if you already study WC and you take up MT, you’re still going to have very little groundfighting training.

I do agree that MT has many things to offer a WC fighter though. It’s just a matter of finding what specifics fit with your WC.[/QUOTE]

I say Oorah

[QUOTE=monji112000;875034]I often wonder if its possible in todays world, of wife, kids, job to cross train more than (MAYBE IF YOUR LUCKY) two martial arts. Honestly I only have half of a job and just got done with school.. I don’t know how people with all three even find time for one martial art. I know people that do BJJ, Sanda, and kali… to me you can only dabble in them… but to play devils advocate against myself people compete and win.
I’m trying to figure out how I can continue doing BJJ and WC with a full time job…

I wish I had the idea to do this stuff when I started college. (7 years ago.. when I did basically nothing all day everyday with no job).

outside of people who own gyms … do normal people have time to master two arts? I often go back and forth on that subject. I personally don’t know.

just some food for thought when thinking about crosstraining.[/QUOTE]

I feel for you bro, that’s why I did it when I was young, single and full of chi :smiley:
Now that I can’t, I can still reap the benefits.
That’s why I tell youngins:
Get your core system, stick with it tell you get proficient in it, then branch out and learn all you can, expose to all you can anf FIGHT all you can, do it WHILE and WHEN you can.

[QUOTE=anerlich;875041]I would say, however, that BJJ is an essential art for the Glorified Kickboxer, a category of Outer Darkness into which many of us have been recently cast. :p[/QUOTE]

True, my 2 years in it were eye openers and it really “finished” my judo nicely.
And while WC and MT are not the good together, that CAN be made to b, they are, after all, different solutions to different problems.
WC and BJJ go well together, escpecially for the GnP part.

“Actually, I have always preached that:
One core specific art (choose your poison)
And ‘round it off/finish it’ with what you need, INCLUDING WEAPONS.
WC is no different, it is not a complete system, it is a specialized form of H2H…” (sanjuro)
……………………………………….

“Effective MMA techniques do NOT necessarily require an elite level of fitness. I agree that the culture of some MMA gyms and MMA events is all thugery and testosterone - but there are those which train the discipline but keep a more mature and respectful culture, like that of some TMA schools…Most of the best instructors I have been privileged to study with can tailor their instruction for the spectrum from the pro athlete to the once-a-week family person who wants an interesting way to keep fit, and to kids.” (anerlich)

***THESE two quotes are spot on, imo.

You don’t have to be an ace athlete or a pro fighter - you just need some good instruction/training…and/or…take the bull by the horns yourself and design your own course and training regimen…

if your goal is to take a mixed martial art approach…AFTER you’ve learned your core art.

Not learning a core art first, I believe, (like sanjuro)…is a mistake.

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;875127] two quotes are spot on, imo.

You don’t have to be an ace athlete or a pro fighter - you just need some good instruction/training…and/or…take the bull by the horns yourself and design your own course and training regimen…

if your goal is to take a mixed martial art approach…AFTER you’ve learned your core art.

Not learning a core art first, I believe, (like sanjuro)…is a mistake.[/QUOTE]

If you have enough experience and some common sense, designing your won training is the way to go and most qualified teachers can help you quite a bit.

A core system gives you something that is truly valuable when you are exposed to other systems, a point of reference, even more so if there is some inter-relation:
ie: Kyokushin to Muay Thai, Judo to BJJ
Or even more distant:
WC to Ethiopian Sumo and Turkish oil wrestling to full contact golf.
:smiley:

[QUOTE=anerlich;875039]Are you saying:

  1. BJJ isn’t the best choice as a second art for a WC guy

or

  1. WC isn’t the best choice as a second art for a BJJ guy?

I don’t necessarily disagree, with option 2 I’m leaning toward the same opinion, but I think as a primarily standup fighter whatever my standup art I’d want my second art to be oriented to groundwork.

John Wayne Parr, multiple K1 veteran and arguably the best MT guy ever from Australia, lost very quickly in his MMA bout against Tony Bonello when the fight went to the ground. Bonello’s cred on the ground is open to question - he’s fought few really good opponents and was made to look helpless by Ninja Rua in a recent MMA bout.

Muay Thai is great, but it ain’t necessarily the total solution either.[/QUOTE]

WC and BJJ are both in their own worlds, very complicated. They both take allot of time to master and both “live” in two different worlds. If we are talking about practicality of training (IE time, effort ect..) Its going to take much more effort to train in both arts.

[QUOTE=Edmund;875042]Correct. You’re a hypocrite. WTF? You do both…

I seriously don’t think you understand my logic when I said it compliments WC.
WC, the stand-up style, needs a groundfighting style to cover the area where it’s not strong. Logic is: On the feet, you use your WC. On the ground, BJJ.

Now it’s time for me to be the hypocrite (I’ve done a lot of MT). But if you already study WC and you take up MT, you’re still going to have very little groundfighting training.

I do agree that MT has many things to offer a WC fighter though. It’s just a matter of finding what specifics fit with your WC.[/QUOTE]

I said wrestling was a better choice for a few reasons… one explosiveness… positioning dominance, and clinching. You can have all of those in BJJ but its not the main focus (but it can be).

Its all about what you want to train for? a SD/street fight or a MMA fight? if your doing MMA then if you don’t do some type of submission based ground fighting system your really putting yourself at a disadvantage. If its SD/street fighting I would say that the core wrestling (position, clinching ect..) are most important. You just want to get back up and get out of whatever position you may be in. basic escapes from BJJ, and sweeps would also be good to train. But you don’t have to devote as much to ground fighting as standup. maybe 70/30. What you devote your time doing should be limited to the above mentioned areas. IE basically more or less wrestling.

I am convinced that if you are doing any striking art, training and learning training methods of MT will help you allot. You don’t even need to adopt the style… just training with them can open your eyes to things.

“I am convinced that if you are doing any striking art, training and learning training methods of MT will help you alot. You don’t even need to adopt the style… just training with them can open your eyes to things.” (monji)

***I AGREE… MT’s training methods, (ie.- lots of pad and bag work, lots of sparring)…it’s devastating way of throwing the always dangerous rear roundhouse kick, it’s excellent use of collar ties, knees and elbows in the clinch, it’s closed stance…

I’ve adopted much of the above and worked it into the TWC framework rather seamlessly, in fact.

I’ve come to prefer a more closed stance than the "about-an-inch-or-so-longer-than-shoulder-width-on-each-side that TWC uses - and with a foot slightly ahead of the other…and the use of elbows and knees is very similar to the TWC way - but with a heavier emphasis on the collar tie set up…and TWC always used a roundhouse kick - but I love the MT way of basically throwing it as if you have no knee joint - as if your leg is a one-piece limb - like a baseball bat that you’re swinging at the guy’s thigh, groin, or mid section (much more power than the TWC, Karate, or TKD way of throwing it)…

MT is great stuff to adopt, adapt, and fit into your pre-existent game.

but I love the MT way of basically throwing it as if you have no knee joint (as if your leg is a baseball bat that you’re swinging at the guy’s thigh, groin, or mid section (much more power than the TWC, Karate, or TKD way of throwing it…

Funny you should mention that, the MT rounds kick, while great for what it was designed to do, is not as good as the karate round kick in what IT was designed to do.
The MT round kick is a “long range” kick, typically at its best from just outside punching distance, whereas the correct distance for the karate round kick is from punching distance where, you will notice, the MT round is not so good.
For what its worth I do both, but recently decided to train the in your face kick more than the MT one, or course by Karate I mean kyokushin.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;875172]Funny you should mention that, the MT rounds kick, while great for what it was designed to do, is not as good as the karate round kick in what IT was designed to do.
The MT round kick is a “long range” kick, typically at its best from just outside punching distance, whereas the correct distance for the karate round kick is from punching distance where, you will notice, the MT round is not so good.
For what its worth I do both, but recently decided to train the in your face kick more than the MT one, or course by Karate I mean kyokushin.[/QUOTE]

are you talking about snapping the kick? or just bending the knee?

Definitely on the same page there, as well, sanjuro… :cool:

I use the “knee joint way” of throwing the roundhouse at close ranges as well - as it’s taught in TWC, karate, etc.

But from a slightly longer distance, the MT way can be devastating. :eek: